Halllp! Electrical Gremlins? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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Halllp! Electrical Gremlins?

Was riding for about 45 min or so and nothing out of the ordinary. Riding somewhat aggresively, and came to a stop to wait for my friend. He caught up and we started riding again. Not a minute later and we are cruising so I pull the clutch to shift and suddenly RPM drops from 7k or so to 0. Keep clutch in and coast to a stop. Try to start it and nothing but a click. Tried to push start and nothing, it tries to turn over but just bucks. Buddy comes and picks me up in his truck. Next day I start messing around and roll it down the driveway and hit around 10mph and dump the clutch in fourth. It starts right up. Roll in neutral about 200yds and bike dies again in the same fashion. I try the same thing again and twice it wont run. I roll it back into the garage dejected lol. At this point I get a new battery from oreilys (as mine tested "bad") hook it up and the same click. The lights dash fuel pump all work normally. With all the plastics off my bike I noticed its coming from the starter relay next to the battery. Pull the connections off the relay and they're all corroded so I cleaned them (coca cola works great, just be sure to wash with rubbing alcohol and dry thoroughly). With everything bright and shiny I hooked it back up went to start, relay just clicked. Sh!t. So I measure the voltage across the two main leads and get a normal 12.6v. I hold the voltmeter onto the relay and hit the starter....voltage drops to zero (this means it is now sending the voltage to the starter). I let go of the button and try to bridge the gap with a screwdriver, as I do I hear the starter faintly click, as if it were engaging weakly, but nothing else. My question now is, is the starter bad? This would make no sense as the bike would have kept running when it was push started. All fuses and continuity is intact for all sensors. Any ideas would be awesome.

Update:
Got a battery charger and charged the new battery for a while thinking it may not be fully charged. Still nothing but a click from the starter and starter relay.
Here are some specs on the new battery however I think I have eliminated it as the problem:
Part #: ETX9
CCA: 120
Ah: 8 A

The manufacturer spec battery (Yuasa YTZ10S)
Is like 190 CCA
and 8.6 Ah.

I thought a 120 CCA battery would be suffecient as I have searched and many people run them on the same bike. My question is do I need to get a battery spec'd at 190? Or is something more sinnister going on, say with the starter or starter gear not disengaging? Anyone else experience similar problems? Or is there something stupid I missed/easy fix?
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry bike is an 03 rr
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 08:06 AM
 
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Get a motorcycle battery. Any of them will be better than an auto parts battery. Do this first. Next, if your battery is fine with power I would concentrate on the starter next. Went through this on my 04. Bike would start fine but not when it was hot. Make sure your fuel pump is turning on as well before you bump start it.

Make sure you hear the whine "prime" before you try to start it.




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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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..."The lights dash fuel pump all work normally."...

The battery I bought was in their (O'reily's) manual as a direct replacement for an 03 cbr600rr. So it is a bike battery. And I cant even start the bike normally so wouldnt know if I have the same if any problem when its hot.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 01:17 PM
 
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Oreily manual can say anything it wants.. Your CCA doesn't match the stock battery. Your battery doesn't have enough balls to start the bike. Get a battery from motydesign.com. Smaller/lighter and better than stock.

It's the battery or your starter, will put money on it. If your bike died while riding then your battery crapped out. Now if your battery is fine "like you are saying" then it's your starter not starting the bike. I would guess with all the trying to start the bike is flooded and you will need to get it going to get that extra fuel out. T




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Last edited by tripage; 09-09-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 01:48 PM
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What is the voltage across the battery itself with no load, and then when you hit the starter button?
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 01:57 PM
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A 120CCA battery is not powerful enough to start these bikes. The minimum they will start with is 150CCA, which is why Honda uses 190CCA batteries. Get a new battery. That one you have is a direct replacement as far as the shape and size of the battery, but not it's rating.

Or, you can take your bike to a motorcycle shop, and get charged an hours labor + parts for them to tell you the same thing we're telling you.
post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, next question, if the battery is not suffecient can I prove this by "jumping" the bike to see if I can get the starter to turn? I know not to turn on the car when I do this before I have eight ppl jump on me.

Im trying to diagnose the problem before throwing more money at it. If the battery is insufficient. I am probably going to return the battery as after doing some hw found that part number as a replacement for the 91-94 cbr. That makes sense as they dont have all our gucci FI injection systems that draw alot.

And T, please read and understand my problem before throwing generic responses at me, the starter will not turn. And inorder for a FI engine to flood it would actually have to be cranking and then not firing, an entirely different issue.

GGAC, I read 12.9 volts and 9.5 ish when I hit the starter button, which after doing more research, found this to be not enough.

Demented, thats the answer I was looking for, a threshold value to work from, like the minimum cca being 150.

Thanks for the suggestions, am out of town over the weekend so wont have a chance to fiddle with it till Tuesday, but I am still thinking bad/insuffecient battery, as even if my starter was bad, would not drain my bike and cause it to die while riding.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 07:41 PM
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Yes, you can, though chances are the CCA on your car battery will be 400CCA or higher. RSX's use a 400CCA battery, but I've seen people put 840CCA batteries in them before because the parts manuals at auto parts stores said they'd be right, same with people putting 440CCA batteries in their cars that call for 550CCA minimum.

IMO, it would be best to use a correctly sized battery to test, since there still is a chance the starter motor might be bad (even though the battery is underpowered). A higher CCA battery would be able to power a bad starter enough to still get it to act normally.

I've got a bad battery in my bike right now, and last I tested it had a CCA of 128 and 12.8V. It'll doesn't have the grunt to spin anything and zaps up all of the voltage with the motor and relay asking for more.
post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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Your FI can leak down even if your bike is not turned on for a month.
I am not going to argue with you but if you want to try my diagnosing solutions then have at it.. I was trying to help you figure out why your lawn mower battery won't start your motorcycle. I simply told you to get a motorcycle battery.

If there comes a time when your bike turns over and over and over without starting, grab a handful of throttle and then remember your bike can't get flooded without it on. After it starts you can right me back and thank me. Your bike can flood even if it hasn't been running or even on.

If your bike starts when it's cold but after the engine warms up it won't start if turned off it's your starter that is the problem.




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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 10:15 PM
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Try jumping your bike off a car battery (with car engine turned off). If it spins your bike's starter motor then go buy a proper Yuasa battery, such as this one:

http://www.batterystuff.com/batterie...le/YTZ10S.html

If your starter motor doesn't spin then the next suspect is your starter relay. Try shorting the motor contacts exiting the relay with a thick wire.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 08:45 AM
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I'm with T and Demented, sounds like you have a crap battery.

Also you can flood an EFI engine, if its sitting around for a while you will get leak down through the injectors causing fuel to pool in the cylinders.
Second way is to have it turning but not firing like what may occur when it dies at 7k and then slows down till it stops or when you try push starting it, the whole time the engine is turning its putting fuel into the cylinders that isn't getting burnt.
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, I will probably just go ahead and order a 190cca ytz10s battery.

I did try shorting and testing the relay and it is a good relay. The bike hasnt been siting for more than two weeks now. Once I actually get the starter to turn, I am fairly confident it will start right up, if not at least one problem has been solved.

And for the record it has "motorcycle/small engine" written down the side of the battery.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 01:18 PM
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I can write motorcycle/small engine on the side of a D battery, all because I can get it to start a 47cc 2-stroke motor. Doesn't mean it'll start a full sized motorcycle with high compression that requires a decent amount of cranking amps.
post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, my area of expertise is in cars and not specifically to bikes, but intuitively one would think if that was written on it, it would work. Sorry just didnt want common sense to fly out the window.

On a lighter note got an oem yuasa ytz10s off ebay for 120 shipped. Hopefully ill get er running next week.
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 02:11 PM
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Ok, you have experience with cars...


Would you try to use this car battery...



http://www.sella.co.nz/motoring/car-...argers/6w4vsv/


to start this motor


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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 02:14 PM
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Lawlz. Maybe 4 of them would get it started,
post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-11-2010, 08:08 PM
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Only if you wanted it to work just once....
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 01:56 AM Thread Starter
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Got the ytz10s and hooked it up fully charged....nothing, same click. Im out of ideas at this point but the next logical step is the starter? If it were, what would cause the bike to die while riding and not be able to be kick started?
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 06:00 AM
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Could be the main ground cable from the battery.
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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, but wouldnt that cause all or most of the other electronics to fail?

Tried something before leaving for work this morning...I turned everything on and measured the voltage across the relay 12.8v same as the battery. Hit the starter button and get the click and I can feel the relay thats clicking. Voltage drops to almost zero, so I measure the continuity between the leads and do not get continuity between the two main leads of the relay. Again common sense would play here that there should be continuity when the relay is engage i.e. starter button is pushed. But that would bring me back to the first point of how would it cause the bike to die while riding if it was/is bad?
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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Does the main ground run directly to the starter?
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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:59 AM
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Ok, if your measuring the voltage across the relay contacts you would expect it to drop to zero when the started is pressed, if you then try to measure continuity under the same circuit conditions you wont get any meaningful result as there is voltage applied to the circuit.

Measure the resistance from the starter side of the relay to ground and post up the reading, it should only be a few ohms.

Does the relay click once per push or does it oscillate when you have the start button pushed?

I'm not sure why your bike isn't starting at this point and the two issues don't seem to be related so to save confusion we should try getting the starter motor working and then move onto the other problem.
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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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It just clicks once and "holds" until I let go of the starter button then clicks back...
When I bridge the to terminals I can faintly hear the starter try and engage, bad ground on the starter? I will measure the resistance when I get home.


And I should know that I couldnt get a continuity with a voltage applied ...lol its still early.
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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 08:29 AM
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Could be, but its grounded through the motor so probably not all that likely to be an easy fix...

Measure the resistance and we will have a better idea of what is going on as that will show where the problem is.
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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Measured the volts while pushing the starter button and it was .12v indicating low resistance and a working starter relay. Cant do a resistance check when a voltage is applied to a circuit.
Disconnected the battery side of the relay, and measured the resistance from the starter side (M) to the frame (ground) and it was 0.000 ohms, so no problem there right?
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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Came across a line in the service manual that made me a little sick...

"Starter relay 'clicks' but engine does not turn over
Problem: Crankshaft does not turn due to engine problems."

What could have happened? Why would I have been able to start and run with no symptoms of problems (except dying suddnely), i.e. no smoking no jerking no noises
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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010, 01:30 AM
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If the crankshaft does not turn due to engine problems your engine has seized - bad thing, but really easy to rule out, put it in 6th hold the clutch in and get to walking pace then let the clutch out. If the motor is seized then the wheel will lock. I very much doubt that your engine is seized.

With the resistance thing, you didn't have to disconnect the battery, just have the key off and don't press the starter button.

0.000 Ohms would be a very bad thing by the way, you should have some kind of reading there.

Measured the volts between where and where? 0.12V across the starter motor is bad, you should get the battery voltage there with the starter pressed.

When you take all of these readings the bike should be as it needs to be to start, ie battery connected, when taking resistance measurements key off and when taking voltage measurements key on and starter button as per the description below.

Do the resistance check between ground and the starter motor side of the relay without pressing the starter (and key off).

Next measure the voltage from at the same place and post up the readings you get without the starter pushed and with it pushed. (key on, 2 readings)

Next measure the voltage between the starter motor side of the relay and the positive terminal of the battery both with the starter pushed and without. (key on 2 readings again)

Next measure the voltage from the frame to the negative terminal of the battery with the starter pressed (yet again, with the key on).

That will tell me where your issue is most likely to be so post up the results and we will see where to go to next.
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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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I tried rolling the bike in 6th and the rear wheel just skidded....
Anyone have an 03-04 rr motor for sale?
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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I also pulled the starter off and as soon as i hit the button i twirled nicely.
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