motor trouble.. everyone i've asked doesn't know - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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motor trouble.. everyone i've asked doesn't know

so i had an 05 bike with about 10k on it that i recently stripped down after the motor mount on the frame cracked in half. here is my thread about the whole thing thus far: https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=200814

before i started to strip down the bike, the motor still ran, and everything seemed fine. no funny noises, no signs of any problems.

since that time i've taken the motor to get compression tested and i've had some major issues. first we noticed that one of the three wires in the stator plug was corroded (green all around it, and it was disconnected from the actual plug). then we also noticed that there was no gasket on the clutch side.

the first time we went to compression test it, sparks starting flying as soon as we touched the positive lead from the starter to the power source. then we took the little access hole on the clutch cover off to try and spin the motor by hand. the motor spun freely so its not seized.

then we took the clutch cover off, and checked all the gears, rods, cam chain, etc. everything looks fine, nothing is stripped etc. we swapped the starter thinking that maybe it was the starter, but we had the same problem with a different starter.

both starters that we tried spin backwards like they are supposed to, and seem to be spinning at full power when they are of the bike. as soon as we put either one back in the bike however, it can not turn the motor and it starts to spark from the positive lead.

anyone know what could be causing this? something is preventing the starter from turning the motor so is it possible that something could have fallen into the motor while i was taking the bike apart and that is causing the problem?

thanks for the help

edit: also, i have the motor with a mechanic now, and he doesn't know why the motor would spin when you turn it via the access hole on the clutch cover, but why the starter would get locked up...

Last edited by SuperBrute; 09-18-2010 at 08:11 PM. Reason: extra info added
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 08:50 PM
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Too weak of a battery and loose connection.
post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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the motor is all by itself, and the power source was freshly charged.

my mechanic just called and said that with some help from a breaker bar via the access hole they were able to get the motor to turn with the starter. but when just using the starter alone it still wont turn.


also the compression test came out as 140, 130, 138, 140. my motor blown?
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 10:40 PM
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the motor is all by itself, and the power source was freshly charged.

my mechanic just called and said that with some help from a breaker bar via the access hole they were able to get the motor to turn with the starter. but when just using the starter alone it still wont turn.


also the compression test came out as 140, 130, 138, 140. my motor blown?
If the guy did the compression test, you're 37-40psi below what is called for, at 350RPM. Though I wouldn't trust that he's competent enough to even change oil if he's sitting there trying to force a locked up motor to spin with a breaker bar to aid the starter motor.
post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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the motor isn't locked up tho?? orignally when we first ran into the starter problem he opened the access hole on the clutch cover and used a 17mm socket to test if the motor would spin freely. he used a longer wrench to turn the motor just to see if the pistons would all move or not, and they did move reletivly easily...

also, once he helps the starter get the pistons moving, the starter has no problem keeping them going.

any idea why that would happen? the starter just cant get the motor to start turning, but we swapped the starter into my 06 motor and it does it just fine.. i'm guessing that there is something that is causing the starter to hang initially in the 05 motor?

could the clutch bolts have been over tightened or anything like that? the motor used to start just fine when i had the bike in one piece.. its very confusing ha
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 01:34 AM
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the motor isn't locked up tho?? orignally when we first ran into the starter problem he opened the access hole on the clutch cover and used a 17mm socket to test if the motor would spin freely. he used a longer wrench to turn the motor just to see if the pistons would all move or not, and they did move reletivly easily...

also, once he helps the starter get the pistons moving, the starter has no problem keeping them going.

any idea why that would happen? the starter just cant get the motor to start turning, but we swapped the starter into my 06 motor and it does it just fine.. i'm guessing that there is something that is causing the starter to hang initially in the 05 motor?

could the clutch bolts have been over tightened or anything like that? the motor used to start just fine when i had the bike in one piece.. its very confusing ha
If it's taking outside motion to get the engine to spin with the starter motor, either there is an issue with the starter motor or gear, the power source is weak, or the engine has seized.

You say the battery has been charged and is good and that the starter motor is just fine in another bike. Unless the motor has been dropped and thrown around, it's unlikely that the starter gears or anything internally got messed up in the engine unless you had the engine apart.
With enough leverage, anything will move easily.

What has happened to the engine since you removed it? What has been taken apart other than the starter and the clutch cover?
post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:42 AM
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Sparks will go everywhere when you connect a high current load like that.
Also if your connecting it to a car battery and the last connection you make is at the battery, I would advise you stop before you blow yourself up. When a lead acid cell discharges it produces hydrogen gas which comes out the vent holes in the caps, adding sparks to hydrogen is generally a bad idea (think Hindenburg).

If you don't have a good connection, ie your using jumper leads, you will lose a good portion of your voltage across those connections and consequently the starter motor wont have a chance.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 09:04 AM
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Not sure about on motorcycles, however on cars the starter is grounded through the engine block/transmission housing. I have seen where someone did a motor swap and decided to paint the block, which intern made the starter not have enough ground. Have you painted the block or starter something that would make you lose ground? Also try removing all the plugs when you try to manually spin it over. Would you describe as hard may just be the cylinders building pressure and resistance all you feeling. Spark plugs out=no compression then should be able to spin over smooth. Good luck let us know what you find.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 09:05 AM
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Ok the obvious thing here.... sparks flying == short.... find the short


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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenjin View Post
Ok the obvious thing here.... sparks flying == short.... find the short
The reason sparks are generated when you have a short is because of the high currents involved (even 1 amp is enough), under normal operation a starter motor will pull in excess of 100 amps without even trying so sparks are to be expected.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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motor has not been taken apart in any other way besides the clutch cover being taken off after we discovered the problem. (at least to my knowledge, the motor as 10k on it, but i've only owned it since 9k)

the mechanic checked all the gears, rods, cam chain, starter gears, etc. he said nothing looks worn, stripped, out of place or anything like that.

we have done several things to ensure that the starter is grounded.

also, when we tested the 06 motor we did it the same way that we tried to test the 05 motor. both starters spin freely in the 06 motor or when they are not in a bike. the 05 starter was able to properly turn the 06 motor over as well, so at this point we are almost positive that there is nothing wrong with the starter in either motor..

we did notice a lot of carbon build up on the valves in the 05 motor, not sure if that could be causing it...

the strange thing here is that right before i started to strip the 05 bike down, the motor would start up just fine, and i even rode it a little to check to see that it wasn't leaking once it warmed up and was under a little bit of load..
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 10:29 AM
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I think your problem is being caused by bad connections, they may look good, they may even test good on a multimeter, but once the high current starts going through the motor those connections will brake down. Try wiring the starter relay onto it and bolting all of the connections. Then just supply 12V to the relay and you should be right.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 12:37 PM
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motor has not been taken apart in any other way besides the clutch cover being taken off after we discovered the problem. (at least to my knowledge, the motor as 10k on it, but i've only owned it since 9k)

the mechanic checked all the gears, rods, cam chain, starter gears, etc. he said nothing looks worn, stripped, out of place or anything like that.

we have done several things to ensure that the starter is grounded.

also, when we tested the 06 motor we did it the same way that we tried to test the 05 motor. both starters spin freely in the 06 motor or when they are not in a bike. the 05 starter was able to properly turn the 06 motor over as well, so at this point we are almost positive that there is nothing wrong with the starter in either motor..

we did notice a lot of carbon build up on the valves in the 05 motor, not sure if that could be causing it...

the strange thing here is that right before i started to strip the 05 bike down, the motor would start up just fine, and i even rode it a little to check to see that it wasn't leaking once it warmed up and was under a little bit of load..
How did the mechanic check the gears with just the clutch cover off?

I think you guys need to stop trying to just hold power to the starter, and start the bike through the proper means. I'm still sticking with it being a loose connection and bad battery.
post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 03:28 PM
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Where exactly are you shooting 12v to? On a car there is a small wire which is the start signal- then there is a large wire to the larger part of the starter you need to have a 12v and more importantly wire large enough to carry the amperage through it. Another words shouldn't tray to use small wire to carry the amperage... need like a set of jumper cables heavy duty wire another words. I think Demented is on the right track with the connection issue or not large enough to carry amperage.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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we are using a jumper type device to give power to the starter.. and we cleaned the connection points, starter still cant seem to turn the motor.

at this point it doesn't really seem to matter tho, since i'm well below the compression that is recommended. (does anyone know what the service limit is? the manual doesn't list one)
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 04:44 PM
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we are using a jumper type device to give power to the starter.. and we cleaned the connection points, starter still cant seem to turn the motor.

at this point it doesn't really seem to matter tho, since i'm well below the compression that is recommended. (does anyone know what the service limit is? the manual doesn't list one)
Was the compression test done properly? If you guys are having such a hard time even getting the starter motor to spin, I'm willing to bet not.

What is the CCA of the power source you're using to try and turn the starter motor? Voltage means nothing in terms of a battery being strong enough to start an engine.

There is no service limit for compression. If it's below, it's out of spec.
post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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well i'm assuming that it was done properly. he tested my 06 motor first. when he did that one it was the same thing, the motor was still in the frame but everything else had been removed. he hooked up the black clamp from his testing (some kind of power supply) device to the smaller of the two wires coming from the starter to ground it. then he hooked his red clamp to the thicker wire coming from the starter. before he did that he took the plug out of the first cylinder only and hooked up the psi gauge by screwing it into the place that the spark plug came out of. once the psi gauge was in, he connected the red clamp, let the starter turn the motor 4 times and it came out to 175psi (cold motor). he repeated this process for each cylinder, and each time we got 175 psi on each cylinder.

then when he tried to do this same process on the 05 motor we ran into the problems that i had described above.

i'm not saying that this mechanic does or does not know what he is doing, but he has been running his own shop for ten years, and everyone that i've meet at his shop has nothing but good things to say about him. he dyno tunes, rebuilds bikes, and does anything else you could ask him to do really. he has service manuals for every bike you can imagine, and he always seems to recheck the manual before he starts anything on a newly arrived bike just so he doesn't confuse anything with another brand of bike. my room mate also had his overheating problem with his 07 600rr fixed here over the summer and had a great experience with him as well.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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also, the starter motor spins without a problem when we remove it from the motor, but when we put it back in the motor, it does not turn the motor unless we help start turning the motor with that access hole on the clutch side. the starter will back spin inside the motor tho.. and that same starter works fine in the 06 motor.

i'm not so good with all exact terminology, so if something isn't clear let me know and i'll call the guy to get the right terms.

i appreciate everyone doing their best to help so far!
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 05:25 PM
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well i'm assuming that it was done properly. he tested my 06 motor first. when he did that one it was the same thing, the motor was still in the frame but everything else had been removed. he hooked up the black clamp from his testing (some kind of power supply) device to the smaller of the two wires coming from the starter to ground it. then he hooked his red clamp to the thicker wire coming from the starter. before he did that he took the plug out of the first cylinder only and hooked up the psi gauge by screwing it into the place that the spark plug came out of. once the psi gauge was in, he connected the red clamp, let the starter turn the motor 4 times and it came out to 175psi (cold motor). he repeated this process for each cylinder, and each time we got 175 psi on each cylinder.

then when he tried to do this same process on the 05 motor we ran into the problems that i had described above.

i'm not saying that this mechanic does or does not know what he is doing, but he has been running his own shop for ten years, and everyone that i've meet at his shop has nothing but good things to say about him. he dyno tunes, rebuilds bikes, and does anything else you could ask him to do really. he has service manuals for every bike you can imagine, and he always seems to recheck the manual before he starts anything on a newly arrived bike just so he doesn't confuse anything with another brand of bike. my room mate also had his overheating problem with his 07 600rr fixed here over the summer and had a great experience with him as well.
If that's what he's doing, he's not testing for compression correctly. Compression readings need to be taken at 350RPM, not with 4 turns of the starter motor.

Simply letting the starter motor spin 4 times is no way of having all of the other requirements met for testing for compression. You should be letting the starter motor spin for 4-7 seconds while holding the throttle at WOT and no fuel getting into the engine. If the starter motor will not spin the engine by itself, you will not get a proper reading. You first need to find out if the power source is bad, what differences there are between the conditions affecting the two motors, or what is internally wrong that is preventing the starter motor from turning the engine.


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also, the starter motor spins without a problem when we remove it from the motor, but when we put it back in the motor, it does not turn the motor unless we help start turning the motor with that access hole on the clutch side. the starter will back spin inside the motor tho.. and that same starter works fine in the 06 motor.

i'm not so good with all exact terminology, so if something isn't clear let me know and i'll call the guy to get the right terms.

i appreciate everyone doing their best to help so far!
Outside of the engine, there is no load on the starter motor and it takes less effort for it to spin. The only thing you find out from testing a starter motor outside of the engine is that it's good, not that the power source is good.
post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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so how should a proper compression test be done? at this point the motor is outside of the frame also, so there is nothing aside from the motor and the starter. can i still do a proper compression test? and how do i get the motor to spin at 350rpm? i was under the impression that the starter spun the motor at close to that number?
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:16 PM
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so how should a proper compression test be done? at this point the motor is outside of the frame also, so there is nothing aside from the motor and the starter. can i still do a proper compression test? and how do i get the motor to spin at 350rpm? i was under the impression that the starter spun the motor at close to that number?
From my post above.
Quote:
You should be letting the starter motor spin for 4-7 seconds while holding the throttle at WOT and no fuel getting into the engine.
Get a service manual. It will help show you the proper testing procedures.
post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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never mind, i just read the service manual..

the service manual describes exactly what we did. (there are no throttle bodies, or gas tank, or anything else lol... ) it says to open the throttle all the way, which would be the same as taking the throttle bodies off right?

here is the page from the manual. like i said, no gas tank or throttle bodies, so all that would leave is to attach the compression gauge and crank the motor for 4-7 seconds to get an accurate reading right?


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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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From my post above.


Get a service manual. It will help show you the proper testing procedures.
yea i just did that, took a while to download, thanks for the help!
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:34 PM
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You need to have the engine in full working order before performing a compression test. Without the throttle bodies, exhaust, and other stuff, the pressure of gasses entering and exiting the engine will be completely different. This might be why you're 30psi or so below 178psi, because there's no throttle bodies, velocity stacks, or anything to build vacuum and suck more air into the combustion chamber.

Put the engine back together, then test.
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You need to have the engine in full working order before performing a compression test. Without the throttle bodies, exhaust, and other stuff, the pressure of gasses entering and exiting the engine will be completely different. This might be why you're 30psi or so below 178psi, because there's no throttle bodies, velocity stacks, or anything to build vacuum and suck more air into the combustion chamber.

Put the engine back together, then test.
but if that is the case, doesn't that mean that my 06 motor wouldn't have tested properly either? my 06 motor was 175 accross all 4 cylinders, and that one also had nothing attached...??

i also took a look at the exhaust that came off the 05 bike, there is a lot of black residue (sign of running rich?).. maybe a sign that my 05 motor is infact below spec?

again, thank you for your continued help with this!
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 06:41 PM
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Before testing for compression, the problem you have to find out is why will the engine not spin properly with the starter motor.

You're trying to jump from step 2 to step 10 without going through what needs to be done in between.
post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 07:42 PM
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You can run a cylinder leak down test on each cylinder if all you are trying to do is determine the inegrity of engine. Can be done on a non-running engine. Your mechanic working on it should know the way to perform this test other wise youtube has a video I'm sure. If not let me know and I can give you instructions once you get the tool. That being said you may want to pull valve cover off and inspect timing.

PS- Most manuals will instruct you to do this test once compression test is done if results are low. Also you can ask your mechanic about doing a wet compression test if you can ever get starter to spin correctly.

Last edited by msf456; 09-19-2010 at 07:49 PM.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 07:46 PM
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Your mechanic working on it should be able to measure AMP draw and compare bike to bike. Need a inductive AMP clamp. Connect it to the big wire at starter or around the power supply wire you are using. Check and measure how many AMPS the 'good' bike that starter spins over fine. Then do same test to the 'problem' bike that should determine if the starter is trying to work or not. High AMPS and no motor spinning is going to be bad.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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so i was talking with my room mate, who helped me strip down the bikes. he told me that when we were taking the throttle bodies off the 05 motor he took the CCT out because he couldn't get to one of the screws holding the TB on.

then i found this thread: https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=199014

it seems that when my room mate simply put the CCT back in, it now made the cam chain too tight.

could this be why the starter cant turn the motor over?
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 10:14 PM
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Yes.

You should pull the valve cover off and the clutch cover again, and check that the bike didn't jump timing and that the cam chain and guides are not damaged.
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