Bike wont turn off... - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Bike wont turn off...

So I see the dozens of threads about bikes not wanting to start but my problem is the complete opposite. My bike fires up fine but when I ready to park it the darn thing wont turn off with the key turned to the off position. I can even lock the steering column and take the key out completely and the bike will continue to run with no gauge cluster on. The engine will shut off if I flip the kill switch but then the gauge cluster stays lit even with the key removed. So right now to get the bike completely off I have to turn the key to the off positon to get the gauge cluster to go off and then trip the kickstand sensor by either puttin the kickstand down while in gear or putting it in gear with the kickstand already down. And when the bike is completely off and I flip the kill switch without the key in the gauge cluster turns on. So, any ideas as to what kind of electrical gremlin im dealing with? I'm thinking a bad ignition switch...

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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 06:49 PM
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ANy thing change?

Sounds like a short some where...


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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 06:51 PM
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What mods or maintenance have you done to your bike recently? Any signs of it trying to be started by someone other than yourself?
 
post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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No change. The only things done to the bike recently was a fork job and a Motodynamic Sequential Tail installed a few weeks ago. After hours of more searching I've found a thread of this happening to one other person and it appeared he had a ground loose near the fuse box that might have contained the engine stop relay? I'm going to look into that first...

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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 07:39 PM
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all of the problems i had recently with my bike and the electrical system boiled down to a faulty ground wire.

no offense, but your problem is hilarious. you should make a vid of it before you fix it.

back to point, like D said, you will def want to go over anything that you have changed or modified. check for faulty grounds, and shorts.

goodluck man.


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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 08:05 PM
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No change. The only things done to the bike recently was a fork job and a Motodynamic Sequential Tail installed a few weeks ago. After hours of more searching I've found a thread of this happening to one other person and it appeared he had a ground loose near the fuse box that might have contained the engine stop relay? I'm going to look into that first...
Check your grounds and anything on the front of the bike that was messed with when doing the forks.
post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DepPravacion View Post
all of the problems i had recently with my bike and the electrical system boiled down to a faulty ground wire.

no offense, but your problem is hilarious. you should make a vid of it before you fix it.

back to point, like D said, you will def want to go over anything that you have changed or modified. check for faulty grounds, and shorts.

goodluck man.
Yeah its kinda ironic and may be funny sometime in the future but with this on top of my girls car giving us issues and me ripping that piece apartment its becoming quite annoying...heh Will check on grounds and wiring tomorrow when I have some light...

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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 08:47 PM
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yea elec problems suck, make you pull your hair out.
hopefully tomorow 'light' will be shed and you will figure it out.


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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-08-2010, 10:22 PM
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Electrical problems are easy! Get a couple tools (multimeter is your FRIEND) and you can troubleshoot nearly any electrical issue on your bike - the same can't be said for many mechanical issues.

For most years, the two things that'll trigger your engine kill relay are the kill switch and bank angle sensor (BAS, as it's often referred to).
If your engine won't die, try pulling out the plug that goes to your right clipon, and that should tell you if your kill switch has an issue (engine should die if you pull this plug).
Otherwise, relays have been known to stick closed, but usually only if you're cranking lots of current through the contacts. Basically the only load this'll drive is the fuel pump, a couple stages downstream, so I doubt that's it.

I doubt it's a short, as usually this means shorting to ground, but it is remotely possible that 12V is stuck on a wire somewhere.
Pull out the plug for your right clipon!
If that doesn't work, get a wiring diagram, we here can walk you through it

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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 01:03 AM
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^^^ Usually it would be uncommon for a sticky relay to be carrying low current but as it has probably had a fair number of cycles put through it already there is probably some metal transfer between the contacts making it stick a lot easier...

Sticky engine stop relay, to check - give it a good tap with the handle of a screwdriver and it will turn off.

New relay and your problem is sorted...
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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 01:11 AM
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I know about having electrical problems...... just blame it on the kickstand.

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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHORTSTACK View Post
I know about having electrical problems...... just blame it on the kickstand.
Nah, your problem wasn't the kickstand...

As D said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demented View Post
...I too have this problem sometimes, and it's a simple fix. The problem is the nut that connects the screw on the right side to the seat...
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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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^^^ Usually it would be uncommon for a sticky relay to be carrying low current but as it has probably had a fair number of cycles put through it already there is probably some metal transfer between the contacts making it stick a lot easier...

Sticky engine stop relay, to check - give it a good tap with the handle of a screwdriver and it will turn off.

New relay and your problem is sorted...
Where might the engine stop relay be on a 05-06 model?

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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 08:58 PM
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Where might the engine stop relay be on a 05-06 model?
Left hand side under the ram air cover.
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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Left hand side under the ram air cover.
Well there are 3 relays there. I know one is for the radiator fan and not sure what the other is for but I tapped them and the bike shut off. So I replaced them with spare relays I have from another wiring harness that I have but the problem continues. But on one of the wires coming from one of the relays I noticed I could see the actual wire and it was pinched a little. Not sure if it is the cause or not but still looking into it...

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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 04:14 PM
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i see youre still hunting that down,
last time i had a grimlin issue Nico helped out a lot,
so listen up,
good luck again


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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 04:16 PM
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if tapping the relay helped, this tells me that the relay is stuck

its possible both relays could be bad ... ooor, there is some voltage bleed some where ... last time i saw this happen is indeed was the ground point where like 2893648326487236482364876234876324872364 grounds make contact on the frame.


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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 04:17 PM
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Well there are 3 relays there. I know one is for the radiator fan and not sure what the other is for but I tapped them and the bike shut off. So I replaced them with spare relays I have from another wiring harness that I have but the problem continues. But on one of the wires coming from one of the relays I noticed I could see the actual wire and it was pinched a little. Not sure if it is the cause or not but still looking into it...
A pinched wire could cause the problem. It's possible that when you tapped the relays, it was the wire from the relay (the pinched one) having a temporary open or even shorting out which could cause the issue. More likely that the relays are bad, but not impossible for it to be the wire.
post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Well im still working on it. Switched the relays around and cleaned all the contacts and that cured the problem for about 5 times turning on and shutting the engine of then the issue continued. Took kill switch apart and cleaned those terminals and that made the issue go away for a few more cycles before continuing again. Does anyone know what that third relay is for? This problem actually killed my battery because even though the bike appeared to be completely off I think the fuel pump was still sucking juice from the battery because I went to leave for work and turned it on but didnt here it prime and I got the infamous clicking sound from a dead battery so had to push start it. On the upside this 40 dollar ebay battery seems to be holding up quite well and seemingly better then the 140ish stock Yuasa but this is becoming quite irritating so I have decided to try messing with it a bit more and if it doesnt change then I'm thinking of swapping out the entire wire harness with the spare that I have and go from there...

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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-10-2010, 08:42 PM
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Left relay is Fuel cutoff relay.
Middle is Fan control relay.
Right is Engine stop relay.

The Fuel cutoff relay is fed by the engine stop relay, so if one's sticking it could be making the other stick too.
However, you also got it to work by cleaning the kill switch. SO I'm guessing it's something common between them all: This leaves the fuel pump or the ECU, or you just have wires touching in the harness that shouldn't be.

If something is draining your battery, either the fuel pump is sucking juice (which is a BAD thing since your engine's not running, and the fuel has nowhere to go), or a wire is (partially) shorted.
If the pump is running all night with the engine off, it'll probably overheat, which might short it out internally. It's got a 20A fuse feeding it, which is plenty to weld together relay contacts without popping after repeated cycles.

Either way, the increased current draw when your relays and kill switch turn on are causing arcing/heating which can weld them together temporarily, and cause all these issues.

At least that's my best guess.
Have you tried holy water?

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post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxRR View Post
Well there are 3 relays there. I know one is for the radiator fan and not sure what the other is for but I tapped them and the bike shut off. So I replaced them with spare relays I have from another wiring harness that I have but the problem continues. But on one of the wires coming from one of the relays I noticed I could see the actual wire and it was pinched a little. Not sure if it is the cause or not but still looking into it...
What colour wire, and which relay?

Relay locations:



Fuel cut relay wont cause your issue as the power to it will still go off when the engine stop relay clicks.

I just re-read your original post... all of it, I think you may be right about the ignition switch....

See the plug I have coloured in above (it was supposed to be 'natural' coloured)? when the bike is running unplug it...

Your bike should turn off.

Then take a paper clip and short out the two terminals on the bike side of the harness and you should be able to start no problems, and everything be back to normal, with the exception of the ignition always being in the 'on' position.

And your flat battery probably wasn't caused by leakage current in the system... you said that you started up and shut down the bike repeatedly, that takes a lot of juice out of the battery and without riding it (and reaching a minimum of around 3k rpm) your battery never had a chance to recharge.

Last edited by Nico; 11-11-2010 at 12:55 AM.
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post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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The battery was fully charged when it was drained the first time i parked it with this issue for then night. I did the on/off testing the next day after riding it to and from work and it had a chance to charge up. But basically something is still feeding the bike power with the bike turned off and key removed. And the symptoms keep changing. I've noticed that when the bike sits completely off now that when the kill switch is in the engine cut position the gauge clusters stays lit in some kind of way either all the numbers and what not showing up or the amber backlight staying partially lit and when I put it in the run position it turns off. But before I swap this harness I will definitely try the paper clip to the ignition plug idea. And then pinched wire was coming off the fuel relay. But as I said before the tapping of the relays still shuts the bike off. But Im thinking its doing it because power is still being supplied to it by a bad ignition switch but the tapping is breaking the supply somehow?

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post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 07:46 PM
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The battery was fully charged when it was drained the first time i parked it with this issue for then night. I did the on/off testing the next day after riding it to and from work and it had a chance to charge up. But basically something is still feeding the bike power with the bike turned off and key removed. And the symptoms keep changing. I've noticed that when the bike sits completely off now that when the kill switch is in the engine cut position the gauge clusters stays lit in some kind of way either all the numbers and what not showing up or the amber backlight staying partially lit and when I put it in the run position it turns off. But before I swap this harness I will definitely try the paper clip to the ignition plug idea. And then pinched wire was coming off the fuel relay. But as I said before the tapping of the relays still shuts the bike off. But Im thinking its doing it because power is still being supplied to it by a bad ignition switch but the tapping is breaking the supply somehow?
Not breaking the supply, relays have what is called a hold current and a throw current.

Throw current is what is required to overcome the spring in them and actuate the relay...

Hold current is what is required to hold the relay where it is once it has been thrown, generally speaking the hold current is around %75 of the throw current.

What I think is happening with the relay tapping is that you have a partial supply voltage going to the relay that allows just enough current to hold the relay in place and when you tap it you are effectively bouncing the contacts a little making the current required to keep it actuated increase a little (cause it has to try and throw it a bit), because the voltage being supplied to the relay is low it can't get the current it needs and so it turns off.

With the relay thrown the battery is literally connected to the fuel pump so its current requirements are being met and the ecu only needs a very small amount to tell it to turn on at which point it draws most of its current direct from the battery as well.

Just to give me a warm and fuzzy, can I get you to turn the ignition switch off, leaving the bike running, then hit the horn? My bet is that it will turn the bike off. :) That will tell you if its the ignition switch or not...
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post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 08:25 PM
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COULD be, but mechanical switches and relays won't supply a "partial" current to anything - they're either on or off and the relay coil will pull the current it needs in either case.
I'm beginning to suspect it's a bigger issue, which is giving you the headache.
If Nico's idea doesn't work, here's another thing to try:

Take out your instrument panel (remove the plug in the back - it's a pain, but we're desperate!) - might take you a while, but it's very possible that a shorted connection internally, or a busted diode, or transistor, or power supply/regulator, or capacitor, is feeding voltage into the system backwards. All the connections are inputs, but if any of them was backfeeding into the system in the right place it'd do all the things you're saying, and maybe just provide enough current to keep a relay on until you whack it a couple times.

Anybody else, thoughts on this?
Time to isolate things!

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post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
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COULD be, but mechanical switches and relays won't supply a "partial" current to anything - they're either on or off and the relay coil will pull the current it needs in either case.
I'm beginning to suspect it's a bigger issue, which is giving you the headache.
If Nico's idea doesn't work, here's another thing to try:

Take out your instrument panel (remove the plug in the back - it's a pain, but we're desperate!) - might take you a while, but it's very possible that a shorted connection internally, or a busted diode, or transistor, or power supply/regulator, or capacitor, is feeding voltage into the system backwards. All the connections are inputs, but if any of them was backfeeding into the system in the right place it'd do all the things you're saying, and maybe just provide enough current to keep a relay on until you whack it a couple times.

Anybody else, thoughts on this?
Time to isolate things!
Could do...

And mechanical switches will supply a partial current if they are not turning off properly (ie damaged), through a high resistance path... current demand increases, voltage drop across the switch increases and you get less voltage available at the load.

:facepalm:

Can also be damaged wiring harness, don't know why that didn't occur to me earlier as its much more likely! I would still be looking at the ignition switch circuit though.

Last edited by Nico; 11-11-2010 at 08:38 PM.
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post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 11:20 PM
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GOTTA disagree - copper (ie slider/rocker switch or most relay contacts) is incapable of voltage drop, its resistivity is a hanful of nano ohms per meter, and any connection that's really tiny will blow itself open under any significant current.
But a higher resistance (or significant voltage drop) path is much more likely in a semiconductor failure - hint: All your instrument panel inputs are diode-protected.

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post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 11:48 PM
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GOTTA disagree - copper (ie slider/rocker switch or most relay contacts) is incapable of voltage drop, its resistivity is a hanful of nano ohms per meter, and any connection that's really tiny will blow itself open under any significant current.
But a higher resistance (or significant voltage drop) path is much more likely in a semiconductor failure - hint: All your instrument panel inputs are diode-protected.
Fun discussion!

High resistance path is carbon build up due to repetitive cycling....... winding up as carbon tracking between the contacts.....

Have seen it before on large barrel switches we use at work, have to get in there and clean them out once every 12 months or they fail.
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post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-11-2010, 11:52 PM
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But I do agree about the copper not being a resistive element in a circuit.
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post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-12-2010, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Nano ohms, semiconductor failure, carbon tracking, diode-protected??? My head hurts. Well I would try the honk the horn test but I havent had a chance to install my horn since the motor swap cuz I lost the mounting bolt. But i guess i can plug it up for this test while im testing the ignition connector. But if its not the ignition would it be safe to say that swapping out the wire harness may help the issue? Considering what this bike has been through and never being garage kept since I bought it brand new in 06 I'm not too upset about this issue but dealing with electronic gremlins is such a headache...

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post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-12-2010, 08:46 PM
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This is a whacky one, for sure.
Most electrical things are simple black and white, and easy to find. You're in a real grey area now!
Still, the simplest way to figure this kinda stuff out is to remove, or replace components until the problem goes away, and you can repeat the results. Thus my recommendation - removing the instrument panel is a biatch though.
If things keep moving around, it's usually best to find the common thread between them - either the ECU, instrument, or wiring harness are good bets.
But the latter two can be pulled out and you can still run the bike.
If nothing else works, find a buddy w/ an RR and swap ECUs to see if things switch places.

EDIT - instead of the horn, you could just pull out a little extra current some other way - you have a 1W 250ohm resistor handy, right? Drop it across your Engine Stop relay's coil to see if that'll turn the bike off after you've flipped the killswitch off.
OR perhaps more likely is a 12V light bulb, it'll pull a decent current.

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Last edited by z537z; 11-12-2010 at 08:52 PM.
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