Huge loss of power in altitude? (Denver, CO) - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:01 AM Thread Starter
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Huge loss of power in altitude? (Denver, CO)

I bought my 07 600RR brand new with 1 mile on her in New Orleans, LA. Ran the bike street and track for about 13,xxx miles no problems. I just moved to Denver, CO and I am experiencing a HUGE loss of power. Taking off from the lights the bike damn near stalls if i dont rev it up a bit and power delivery all throughout the RPM range is "boggy". Are all bikes this bad in high altitude????? Only power mods are Leo Vince slip-on, -1 front sprocket, and I did remove the exhaust servo but like I said its throughout the entire RPM range. Am I going to have to break down and buy a Power Commander and air filter or is there another way?
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:06 AM
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dont take what i say as law.
air is thinner at higher altitudes. Your bike is accustomed to a specific fuel air mixture using air that is thicker. Now that you live in a new region with a higher altitude and thinner air, could it be that the thin air is messing with your fuel air mix and making your engine run really rich/boggy? maybe you should remap your fuel/air to make up for the thinness of the air in your current location.

just a thought :)
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:32 AM
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I have a stock (in terms of fuel management) 07 and my bike runs just fine up here. You have to figure you're probably used to power delivery at sea level and when you come up here the thinner air will make your bike feel not as responsive and it won't produce as much power. Might just take some time getting used to your bike again. I know when I took my car down in elevation it was a monster, then back up to a mile high and its back to "normal".

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 05:36 AM
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yeah the higher you go the less power you will have. have you cleaned your air filter and what not to make sure it's not something very simple?? You can re-map your ECU or get a power commander and go that route to try to get some power back into it....
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 09:09 AM
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Try to reset the ECU of the bike. So disconnect the battery and let it sit for 10-15 minutes, reconnect and the ECU should reset. ECU's do learn as you ride, so that might be the problem.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by slowboyracing View Post
Try to reset the ECU of the bike. So disconnect the battery and let it sit for 10-15 minutes, reconnect and the ECU should reset. ECU's do learn as you ride, so that might be the problem.
yep this is the route i would go, the bike is accustomed to sea level amounts of air. Resetting the ECU will allow it to forget current memory.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 11:23 AM
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I would reset the map and then wait about a week for the comp to re learn the new air. The higher altitude should not effect power if its tuned properly.


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 11:41 AM
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Our bikes don't 'learn' what their mixture should be.... its fixed in a map that cannot be reset.

At higher altitude your atmosphere is at a lower pressure meaning less oxygen is available...

HOWEVER.... your mixture shouldn't be to much of an issue for you as the bike references its mixture off the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor which by its very nature will compensate the mixture for the difference in altitude... how many times can you say 'mixture' in one sentence? :)

If you want to get it running at %100 again you will simply need to get a BMC/K&N filter and a tune at the higher altitude... provided there isn't something else going on here as well.

What this will do is allow more air to get into the bike and ensure that the correct a/f ratio is maintained.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 07:29 PM
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welcome to Denver man, i have never ridden a sea level but im sure its just a mental thing. maybe try re mapping but besides that you probley just need to twist the throttel more.

hit me up if you are looking to do some riding canyons are looking good.
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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I talked to a tech at Fay Myers (local Honda shop) and he more or less said there is less air up here....period. I won't get that full power back. A Power Commander and air filter will help but will not get the bike back to what it was at sea level (below sea level in New Orleans). And that disconnecting the battery (resetting ECU) won't do anything. But just because i'm a hard head i'm going to disconnect it anyways and probably get the PCV and a BMC air filter. I'll let you all know how it comes out. Always up for a ride, shoot me a PM when you have some time to go.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 09:25 PM
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Less O2 = less power

The guys in WSBK say that when they come to Salt Lake City it's like the bikes are running on 3 cylinders. If wasn't for the altitude they would be well over 200 mph at the end of the main straight.

If it was fixable they would be doing it.

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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerx2 View Post
Less O2 = less power

The guys in WSBK say that when they come to Salt Lake City it's like the bikes are running on 3 cylinders. If wasn't for the altitude they would be well over 200 mph at the end of the main straight.

If it was fixable they would be doing it.



I agree. Just move back to LA
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 10:30 PM
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Also run a lower octane fuel as well if you've been running premium. That's why the octanes go down lower out there than most other places (ie 85 octane). That should help some too. Try the lowest octane and if it pings, go to the next one up until it stops

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, have never heard anything about the octane. I will have to try it out. And move back to LA? I think not sir, more like start preshopping for that Repsol......
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowboyracing View Post
Try to reset the ECU of the bike. So disconnect the battery and let it sit for 10-15 minutes, reconnect and the ECU should reset. ECU's do learn as you ride, so that might be the problem.
exactly what i was going to say. you can totally disconnect the battery its easy but you really only need to disconnect 1 terminal, most places say disconnect the negative side (though i never understood that. if somebody knows why "they" say disconnect the negative instead of the positive i am interested)
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by xxumattuxx View Post
exactly what i was going to say. you can totally disconnect the battery its easy but you really only need to disconnect 1 terminal, most places say disconnect the negative side (though i never understood that. if somebody knows why "they" say disconnect the negative instead of the positive i am interested)
Not going to do anything...

And the reason you disconnect the negative first is to prevent you from shorting the battery out to the frame with whatever tool you are using to undo the bolt on the battery post.

Not really a high risk of doing on our bikes but when you are doing so on a car with a spanner then it quite often happens... if you do short it out and it gets a good connection it can vaporise a spanner in no time with the amount of current that gets drawn, which I assume would be a bad thing while its in your hand...
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 06:26 PM
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before i bought my 600rr i rented one out in denver for a week and fell in love with it. couple months later back in jersey i bought one and it was so much faster here at sea level.

i rode my cousin's r1 out there at the even higher elevation levels up by rocky mt national park and couldnt believe how much the elevation kills the performance.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 06:58 PM
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i will say when i rented a 636 in Arizona as i got up into the mountains with it, it seemed to kinda bog down, but there were so many different things going on it was over 100 degrees a couple of the days and i went riding in the mountains 1 day and another day i just played around Scottsdale then went east for a bit. i wasn't really on the bike long enough to know how it normally acted.
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bimmerx2 View Post
Less O2 = less power

The guys in WSBK say that when they come to Salt Lake City it's like the bikes are running on 3 cylinders. If wasn't for the altitude they would be well over 200 mph at the end of the main straight.

If it was fixable they would be doing it.
Exactly. The higher you go the less o2 there is in a given volume of air. The bike ingests the same volume of air regardless of altitude.

Ditto the re-mapping for altitude. There is no real fix other than going back down to SL. A turbocharger would make your bike less susceptible to altitude related power loss for sure though :)

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 01:50 AM
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loFl at everyone saying it's a "mental" thing or in his head. I usually stick to trackdays but I have a few friends that drag race and will occasionally go with them just for fun to do something different and get away from base. It's weird that people on here are saying that it's in his head or just so "reset the ecu" and everything will be good, cause the nhra says otherwise. my 1/4 goes from a 10.80 (at 3700) to about a low 10.4 (at sea level). it's incredible the lack of knowledge on this forum, people taking stabs in the dark and guessing and the coming on and posting where impressionable people read their crap



YOU WILL LOSE POWER AS YOU INCREASE ELEVATION. LOSS O2 TO MIX = LESS POWER no way around it. my 600 can power wheelie at sea level, at 3900ft you have to cut throttle or clutch. my r1 will come up through 4th at sea level which weakens out to about a strong throttle in 2nd (no clutch or bounce). if you brought a turbo vehicle (aka not 99.95% of bikes) they handle it better. n/a motors don't do hot.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-09-2011, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by unanswered600 View Post
loFl at everyone saying it's a "mental" thing or in his head. I usually stick to trackdays but I have a few friends that drag race and will occasionally go with them just for fun to do something different and get away from base. It's weird that people on here are saying that it's in his head or just so "reset the ecu" and everything will be good, cause the nhra says otherwise. my 1/4 goes from a 10.80 (at 3700) to about a low 10.4 (at sea level). it's incredible the lack of knowledge on this forum, people taking stabs in the dark and guessing and the coming on and posting where impressionable people read their crap



YOU WILL LOSE POWER AS YOU INCREASE ELEVATION. LOSS O2 TO MIX = LESS POWER no way around it. my 600 can power wheelie at sea level, at 3900ft you have to cut throttle or clutch. my r1 will come up through 4th at sea level which weakens out to about a strong throttle in 2nd (no clutch or bounce). if you brought a turbo vehicle (aka not 99.95% of bikes) they handle it better. n/a motors don't do hot.
i didn't see anyone say it's in his head but you're 100% right altitude definitely effects o2... the reason i suggested resetting the ecu by disconnecting the battery is ...

my cars ecu works like that, it has an adaptive ecu and uses a bunch of a different variables to determine how much fuel to add, over time it adapts to your driving style and area. so when lets say i go to TN to visit family, my truck runs much different because of the humidity/heat/etc but if i stop and reset the ecu it usually improves fuel economy. i reset it in the summer/winter also and it is a noticeable difference.

i have not studied the ecu in the 600rr extensively so for the 1 minutes it takes to unscrew the terminal i thought it would be worth a try.

thank god we have you here know everything there is to know about all years of the cbr600rr from now on any questions we have will be directly pm'd to you so we can get the correct response from the most knowledgeable person on the forum.

ps. i can power wheelie a ninja 636 in Michigan and i can power wheelie a ninja 636 in the mountains in Arizona... so possibly using that as your proof of power loss may not be the best idea, maybe you just don't know how to power up a wheelie constantly.

Last edited by xxumattuxx; 06-09-2011 at 02:54 AM.
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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I tried disconnecting the battery for about 30 minutes and got nothing. I'd really like to ride another RR to see how a bike that has been in this altitude it's entire life would compare to mine. Not real worried about it now but if I can't keep my bike up to par at the track because it's a turd I will not be a happy camper.
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 01:05 PM
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I am betting once you run into another .netter in your area they will be happy to trade bikes with ya to go for a little 20 min spin to see it there is any diffrence.

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-10-2011, 01:13 PM
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get the power commander and get map.... car ECU and bike ECU do not have the same features...same function though...
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-11-2011, 02:46 AM
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To add to my earlier post a bit-

Re-mapping is a good idea. The relative lack of o2 compared to sea level means you are now running richer. Assuming the bike was properly tuned in the first place, the fuel curve should be adjusted for this lack of o2.

This will not make it like it was at sea level, as the o2 level in the air simply isn't the same. There is no way to add more o2 to the air in your area.

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 08:20 AM
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To add to my earlier post a bit-

Re-mapping is a good idea. The relative lack of o2 compared to sea level means you are now running richer. Assuming the bike was properly tuned in the first place, the fuel curve should be adjusted for this lack of o2.

This will not make it like it was at sea level, as the o2 level in the air simply isn't the same. There is no way to add more o2 to the air in your area.
You aren't running richer... the amount of fuel that is put into the bike is mostly based on the value read by the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor.

The reason there is less o2 around is because you are at a higher altitude... but o2 still makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere up there, its just at a lower pressure meaning less air and subsequently less o2 per unit volume.

Given that the bikes manifold pressure will drop by a proportional amount to the drop in atmospheric pressure its is readily apparent that the bike's MAP sensor will tell the ecu of this fact and the mixture will be adjusted accordingly. Ergo: yes less o2, no you won't run rich.

As for correcting it, yes there is a way to do it: Free up the intake so that it flows more air into it... then get a p/c or bazzaz to correct the a/f ratio.

And before someone asks me why you would need one given that an increase in air getting into the bike should cause an increase in pressure, you would be right to an extent but its not the pressure that changes a whole heap, its the flow rate of the system... meaning more air in the front, more air in the cylinder and provided the latter offsets the former the pressure will remain the same(ish).
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-12-2011, 11:34 AM
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I don't want to speak for ApexHunter but I think he may have been saying that if you have a 13.0 A/F ratio and you reduce the oxygen your ratio will go up. I effect it raises the A/F.

What Nico may be saying is that the MAP sensor will see the drop in atmospheric pressure and reduce the fuel. So even though there's less O2 there should be less fuel, effectively cancelling each other out.

But the actual fuel map is so much more complicated then that. What they're telling you is the basics. I would encourage everyone with a PowerCommander to load it up on your laptop. Make a backup of your fuel map to your HD and then open it. You'll see that the map is actually broken down by throttle position and RPM's. This allow you to map a specific portion of the map to correct such things as....stalling at take-off.

Get something to manage your fuel map and get the bike on a dyno. You may not get back to what it was at sea level but you should get a bike tuned to it's best performance for your altitude. The point is to get as much as you can out of the bike and correct deficiencies in the map.


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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2011, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
You aren't running richer... the amount of fuel that is put into the bike is mostly based on the value read by the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor.

The reason there is less o2 around is because you are at a higher altitude... but o2 still makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere up there, its just at a lower pressure meaning less air and subsequently less o2 per unit volume.

Given that the bikes manifold pressure will drop by a proportional amount to the drop in atmospheric pressure its is readily apparent that the bike's MAP sensor will tell the ecu of this fact and the mixture will be adjusted accordingly. Ergo: yes less o2, no you won't run rich.

As for correcting it, yes there is a way to do it: Free up the intake so that it flows more air into it... then get a p/c or bazzaz to correct the a/f ratio.

And before someone asks me why you would need one given that an increase in air getting into the bike should cause an increase in pressure, you would be right to an extent but its not the pressure that changes a whole heap, its the flow rate of the system... meaning more air in the front, more air in the cylinder and provided the latter offsets the former the pressure will remain the same(ish).
It always sucks when you ask a question and get a number of varying answers, so....

Nico is right. Doh! The key being that these bikes use the MAP sensor to calculate the amount of fuel to inject, therefore the change in altitude and the subsequent change in pressure is compensated for. Yep, to see a performance improvement you would need to increase airflow through the system. Then you would want to re-tune, because otherwise the amount of fuel injected stays the same because atmospheric pressure stays the same.

NewRedRider, thanks, that is basically what i was saying but i neglected to realize that the system, being MAP based, will compensate for the lesser pressure by reducing fuel. I agree, there have to be other inputs (other than MAP sensor voltage) used by the ecu to determine injector pulsewidth. What i've commonly seen with automotive applications with MAP based systems are RPM, throttle position, intake air temp, and coolant temp. Not sure how sophisticated the bike's ECU is, i'm interested to know what all it uses.

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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2011, 10:31 AM
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MAP, ECT, RPM, IAT, and TPS set the mixture, IACV position and exhaust servo position, and the cam and crank position sensors set up the timing of the injectors and ignition.

VSS may or may not have anything to do with mixture... however I suspect that it does.

The o2 sensor is for emissions control compliance, has nothing to do with the mixture as the bike runs in "open loop"

And I don't believe the knock sensor has any affect on timing, it just provides a warning in the same way as the o2 sensor does.

That just about covers it I think.
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2011, 11:45 PM
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So there is no closed loop. Then if the o2 sensor sees a voltage it doesn't like for too long, then it illuminates one of the warning lights on the cluster i assume? This is its only purpose?

You'd think that the ecu would pull timing if it saw too high of a knocksum from the KS.

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