05 600RR Surging - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-03-2011, 04:01 AM Thread Starter
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05 600RR Surging

Firstly I apologise for starting a new thread on this but I have done a search of this forum and have found so many different answers to this problem I thought I would post my particular circumstances and see what help I can get.

I bought my 05 600RR a few months back. Seems to be in perfect condition. I bought it at 9500kms with a BMC filter, Yoshi slip on and Power Commander III. The previous owner said that its last service was done (at a bike shop) at 7500kms. I rode the bike about 600kms to get it home and it ran beautifully but I didn't give it much use after that due to the weather.

Last weekend I filled it up with BP Ultimate (98) and rode about 100-150kms away from home no sweat. About half way back I was giving it a good hard run and it started surging, enough to drop 2-3km/hr of the speedo instantly and jolt a bit. It progressively got worse until I could not get the bike over 60km/hr and it was spitting something fierce and decided to pull up. Had a bit of a break and gave it another go and it took off fine for a while but slowly crept in again. The tank was empty when I got home so I filled up at a different servo and put some injector cleaner/octane boost in it.

I got the bike home and have only ridden it to and from work since, and it does not give me any grief at all on these short rides. Just took it for a steady ride about 25kms away and half was back it starting surging again (not as bad though but I was taking it easy).

I am fairly mechanically savvy with cars but bikes are fairly new to me. There is so many different threads on this issue so I was wondering if I could get an idea of where to start on this problem. If anyone could give me some ideas of what to check sort of from the most common problem to the obscure and if you know of any links to a work log please post those too because I'm not real familiar with the bike. (Thanks for reading my long a$$ story).
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-03-2011, 09:32 AM
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Is there a vacuum building up in the tank? If so you want to check your vent line.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-03-2011, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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Is there a vacuum building up in the tank? If so you want to check your vent line.
And of all the things I might have half an idea about, that I have never even heard of. So to answer your question I have no idea if there is a vacuum in the tank.

Could you elaborate on the cause of this and where the vent line would be? (I'm a complete noob at this)
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-04-2011, 03:06 AM
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Vent line runs from under the tank and comes out just next to the front sprocket / water pump.

The top of the tank is sealed so that you don't get water ingress which creates a problem when the bike pumps all of the fuel out - causes a vacuum... as the vacuum increases the pump finds it harder and harder to supply enough fuel and it ends up starving the engine at high rpm (and hence high fuel demand).

The vent line is there to prevent this from happening by allowing air back into the tank from somewhere it isn't to likely to have water work its way into the tank, such as below the level of the tank through a small pipe...

To find out, ride around for a while, shut the bike down and open the fuel cap, if its difficult to open then you have a vacuum building up in there...
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-04-2011, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Cheers man. I half remember it being hard to open the tank when I got back into town to refuel but can't say I was taking that much notice. Thought the key might have been getting a bit stiff to turn and not fully disengaging the lock rather than a vacuum pulling from underneath.

I'll see if I can't blow some air through the vent pipe and let you know if there was any pronblems.
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Vent line runs from under the tank and comes out just next to the front sprocket / water pump.

The top of the tank is sealed so that you don't get water ingress which creates a problem when the bike pumps all of the fuel out - causes a vacuum... as the vacuum increases the pump finds it harder and harder to supply enough fuel and it ends up starving the engine at high rpm (and hence high fuel demand).

The vent line is there to prevent this from happening by allowing air back into the tank from somewhere it isn't to likely to have water work its way into the tank, such as below the level of the tank through a small pipe...

To find out, ride around for a while, shut the bike down and open the fuel cap, if its difficult to open then you have a vacuum building up in there...
What a mission!!!! Seemed like a lot of effort to get under the tank with all the fairings and what not. Anyway, I've disconnected the breather hose and can blow air through it just fine in both directions. I've blown through the end connected to the tank and the pressure builds up, then it blows back out when I let go. Seems to be fine and no clogs. Opened the filler cap and can blow through the tank end fine as well. Does not seem obstructed in any way.

I have a bad feeling this is my problem though - https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.p...l+tank+2005+05

I stuck a torch in the tank to try and see the inside of the tank where the breather comes in and looks like there is a lot of crap in there. Just slimy and scaly **** over the tubes and stuff in there. And the tank near the filler hole all gritty and wipes off in a rust colour. Certainly doesn't look as bad as the rust in that thread but enough to make me 'WTF'!!!

Next step looks like taking the fuel pump out and checking out the insides of the tank. Scratching my head though as to why or how you would get rust inside the tank, hopefully I can prevent it happening again if thats what it is!
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 11:32 AM
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Could be that.

And its easy enough to get water in there if your not careful, and if you have been using ethanol fuel the ethanol itself will absorb water...

BTW, do you drink rum?
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Could be that.

And its easy enough to get water in there if your not careful, and if you have been using ethanol fuel the ethanol itself will absorb water...

BTW, do you drink rum?
I live near the factory man, we have more rum here than we know what to do with lol. I do security there sometimes when they launch new products and the bogans live outside the factory for weeks to be the first to get the new flavour.

Nope, never used Ethanol, the manual advised against it. Always use 98 octane from BP. The rust makes sense, because the previous owner said he never rode it, and it was bone dry when I purchased it.

I think I am a bit rubbish at using the search engine, everything I search for just brings up the same 12309u423094203 threads. Can you point me in the direction of some instructions to drain the tank, get the tank off, and get the fuel pump out??
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 12:14 PM
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Best suggestion for that would be the service manual mate.

Its not hard though... just siphon the tank as much as possible then take off the seat, ram air covers, fuel tank cover to get at the fuel tank itself, then undo its bolts, pull it up from the front, pull off the breathers, then with a rag under it undo the banjo bolt holding the fuel line.

After that there is just a few screws holding the pump in.
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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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Best suggestion for that would be the service manual mate.

Its not hard though... just siphon the tank as much as possible then take off the seat, ram air covers, fuel tank cover to get at the fuel tank itself, then undo its bolts, pull it up from the front, pull off the breathers, then with a rag under it undo the banjo bolt holding the fuel line.

After that there is just a few screws holding the pump in.
Just put it all back together so it can take me to work tomorrow. But it looked like the tank itself was only suspended by the two bolts which it pivots up on.

And I thought there might have been more of a trick to getting the fuel out than just undoing the line under the pump and hoping it doesn't spill. But I'm on the second last bar of fuel so should be good to go very soon.

Just need to get some of this - http://www.kbs-coatings.com.au/KBS-M...-Kit_p_13.html
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 01:00 PM
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It will spill, that's why you siphon as much out as you can and use a rag under the line when you undo it...

There shouldn't be to much come out though cause when you lift the tank it will get all the fuel away from the line...

There are four bolts holding it on, two up the front and two up the back.
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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Looks like it shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Well now that I know how to get the tank cover off.

Has me worried about the car now too, its been sitting around going no where for years since I've been riding bikes.
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
It will spill, that's why you siphon as much out as you can and use a rag under the line when you undo it...

There shouldn't be to much come out though cause when you lift the tank it will get all the fuel away from the line...

There are four bolts holding it on, two up the front and two up the back.
Is there any trick with the power wires or anything else? Forgot to have a close look at those...just a male/female connection that pops straight off I'm hoping.
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 09:25 AM
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Pretty much, yep... just got to pull her apart.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-22-2011, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Few false starts on getting the siphon going but the tank is now empty. Got my KBS tank kit on hand and am ready to rock and roll. Not too much crap in the fuel siphoned out. We'll see how it is when I get the pump off. Taking a few photos for a work log along the way.
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post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-22-2011, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Definately a rust issue. The bottom of the fuel pump is fairly well clogged. Luckily it doesn't look too flakey and just grainy. The inside of the tank just looks like surface rust and not even that bad.

Do we think I can save the pump?? Any suggestions on how to clean it?? Chemicals to use etc?

I'll put in the first step of the tank saver while I await replies :)
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post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-22-2011, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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The tank sealer kit was much much more difficult to use than I first thought. Getting a water tight seal without using the OEM seals is a tough job.

In the meantime I cleaned the pump with some Inox (WD40 stuff). Turned out ok. There is next to no rust flakes/pieces in the orange gauze so I am quite hopeful.
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post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-23-2011, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
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Got Part 1 and 2 of the tank cleaner kit done. Some before and after pics. This stuff does an amazing job.

Bit of surface rust has found its way inside while it is drying out, but Part 3 says this won't effect the seal. So far so good.......
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post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-23-2011, 08:08 AM
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post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-23-2011, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, spot on. That thread is how I came to work out what was wrong with mine
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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-24-2011, 01:21 AM Thread Starter
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Got the sealer in and everything is looking good. Takes a week to fully cure though :(

Next Sunday afternoon will be spent putting it all back together and taking it for a run to see if I have any issues with the pump. Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!
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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-25-2011, 06:38 AM
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Good luck mate, hope it all works out well for you!
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-29-2011, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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I emailed KBS who said i only needed to wait 96 hours. Slapped it all back together tonight. First time i primed the pump it sounded a bit funny. Turned it off and on again and it sounded fine. Started straight away. Took in for a snappy 50k ride and didn't slip a beat. $50 KBS naw have just solved all my problems. Very impressed'
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2014, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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May need to reopen this thread. Unforetunately after a coiuple of brokne legs and some very poor weather the back has been sitting for a couple of months and I have only just taken it out for a run before I go back to work. After searching and reading some threads I think I have the same problem reoccurring or something going wrong with the PC (has a PC III installed).

Got on the bike and rode it like I'd stolen it to get that out of my system, no issues what so ever. Then I road the bike at a constant 6k rpm for about 45mins just to charge it up and all that business. When I went to give it another run out of a corner it bogged at 8k and wouldn't go past that. Same thing in every gear but when I pulled the clutch in and revved it would go up as normal. Was able to ride home under 8k but the problem never went away.

Switched the bike off and let it cool down. Took it back out and it was back to normal. Had a look in the tank and everything looks sweet, KBS coating still looks good and no crap in the bottom of the tank. Not sure when it only started after a while, its not the same as last time where the bike would just slowly die right down until it stopped. Will have to do some investigation :(

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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-21-2014, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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So it appears that it was the same problem. I opened up the bike and whilst the amount of rust in and around the pump was minimal, it was quite fine stuff this time rather than big chunks (probably much worse).

I cleaned it out the best I could and its somewhat better. I didn't go much further than this at this stage. I couldn't see exactly where the rust was coming from which is also a concern.

But as a general symptom it kicks in around the 8krpm mark or with a big twist of the throttle. When I drop the throttle it seems to come good for a bit. I'm wondering if this is something to do with those secondary injectors?

Do the secondary injectors have their own little filters that I should be checking/cleaning? I've put a ton of injector cleaner through but its not of much use. Any recommendations? Or is it just all up in the pump now and that needs replacing?
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-21-2014, 08:54 AM
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AFAIK the secondary injectors come in at over 5500 RPM right or over 50 degrees of throttle opening So if that were causing the problem then surely it should occur then. When you give it WOT from a standstill does it bog down or cause any problems? Try holding at 6000 RPM and then give WOT see what happens?

Could it be a vacuum line problem?

Did you disassemble the airbox by any chance? There's a fair few breather hoses connected on that, also some vacuum lines under the MAP sensor near the airbox.

TBH I really have no idea about what could be causing this. Could your fuel pump filter be clogged?
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-21-2014, 10:32 PM
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Take power commander off, or run a "zero map"?

see if that changes performance?
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-23-2014, 06:35 AM
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First off, as above, disconnect the power commander.

Then, the thing that I find concerning is the pump cleaning and fine rust powder. If that has gotten through the filter it may very well have blocked up your injectors. If the power commander makes no difference I'd be replacing the pump and getting the injectors tested.
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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AFAIK the secondary injectors come in at over 5500 RPM right or over 50 degrees of throttle opening So if that were causing the problem then surely it should occur then. When you give it WOT from a standstill does it bog down or cause any problems? Try holding at 6000 RPM and then give WOT see what happens?

Could it be a vacuum line problem?

Did you disassemble the airbox by any chance? There's a fair few breather hoses connected on that, also some vacuum lines under the MAP sensor near the airbox.

TBH I really have no idea about what could be causing this. Could your fuel pump filter be clogged?
That's basically what I was getting at. It bogs down when I reach a certain RPM (higher than 5.5k though) or when I whip the throttle open. So yes it happens exactly how you say.

I checked all the vacuum lines the first time this happened and I'm pretty confident they are ok.

I've never had the airbox off myself but the previous owner said it had a new filter installed. That was done by a shop but you can never entirely trust them. However the problem hasn't been constant since I got the bike so figure its something more variable than the hoses being off.

I am leaning towards the pump. From googling and looking at it, it seems the only filter is that orange gauze stuff on the bottom which I don't think would strain a whole lot out. Must be something internal but I can't see or get to that. I'm hoping that is clogged and the finer stuff hasn't made it through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tary preisser View Post
Take power commander off, or run a "zero map"?

see if that changes performance?
I've queried the power commander before but with finding this rust its hard to rule that out as being the problem. I mean surely the rust isn't sitting there having no effect at all and its the PC???? I do want to get it tuned again though so it will be getting checked out.


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First off, as above, disconnect the power commander.

Then, the thing that I find concerning is the pump cleaning and fine rust powder. If that has gotten through the filter it may very well have blocked up your injectors. If the power commander makes no difference I'd be replacing the pump and getting the injectors tested.
As above. How exactly do I disconnect it? It seems relatively hardwired in but I've only seen the box in the 'boot' and haven't investigated where the wires run. Is there a simple plug in / plug off somewhere??

I'm really thinking its pump replacement time. Few hundred bucks on ebay. Will be searching about for my options. The tank appears clear of any rust forming so I have a feeling the rust is actually parts of the pump coming away. And I guess a new tank would only be up for rusting again as well.

It's also my daily at the moment so haven't had it apart again. It gets me to and from work no problems, can even open it up. Its only after I have been on it for a bit constantly (and I imagine its had time to suck up a heap of crap from the tank) that it starts giving me grief. And it gets worse and worse until I stop and give it a rest (and I imagine the crap works its way out of the pump a bit) and then it goes again for a bit.
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-02-2014, 12:48 AM
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It all plugs into the wiring harness. Just unplug the power commander wires and plug the bikes harness back into the relevant spots.

And yep, the rust could be having zero effect and all the problems be the power commander. Your's wouldn't be the first to have failed.
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