Runs rough under 2.5k rev - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2012, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Runs rough under 2.5k rev

So I put up a video a couple weeks ago on the maintenance forum asking about a cough my bike seemed to be developing while at idle.

Here's the link: https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=282980

Bike stats:
2005 cbr600rr
Just under 13k kms
Yoshi exhaust slip on

It seemed to go away for a little bit but I have narrowed when it acts like this.

1. While warming up the bike is fine
2. Once up around 180F + it starts to cough/misfire? at idle and below around 2-2.5k revs --> revs sit around 1500 but drop to around 1200 and back up pretty quick, sounds kind of like purrrrrrrrcoughpurrrrrcoughpurrrcoughcoughpurrrrrr coughcoughpurrrrcough
3. Once I am passed 2.5-3k revs the bike sings awesomely and has no issues whatsoever up to 14k revs - haven't had it past that
4. It doesn't stall or cut out at all
5. Acceleration from stop is rough as well due to low revs

There is also a consistent ticking sound that increases speed as revs increase and it sounds like it is coming from right side of engine. Is that the CCT needing to be checked or should I be concerned about valve adjustments?

Things I think I can rule out are fuel lines, pump, filter, probably not sparkies or timing? I assume this because the bike is running fine at higher revs and I would think I would get similar symptoms throughout revs if these were an issue.

Could it be ICS, TPS, fuel/air mixture? I will be tearing the bike down soon as I'm getting new fairings from auctmarts and want to pull plugs, test some wiring and replace air filter.

Any thoughts or things I should be concerned about?
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2012, 09:09 PM
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by dropping in rpms from 1500 to 1200 does it sound like its getting choked?

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2012, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by speeddeamon88 View Post
by dropping in rpms from 1500 to 1200 does it sound like its getting choked?
I suppose that could be a good description. It's like the engine sputters briefly then comes back up. Does the same when idling as when taking off from a stop until I hit around 2k-2.5k rpm
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 12:56 PM
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How warm do you let your bike get before riding it. Has it been wrecked? if so how bad? If sitting still and reving above the 2k range does it still do it or only when riding?

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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by speeddeamon88 View Post
How warm do you let your bike get before riding it. Has it been wrecked? if so how bad? If sitting still and reving above the 2k range does it still do it or only when riding?
I usually let it warm up or a minute or two before I jump on but I ride it quite lightly until its up around 180-190 F.

The previous owner did lay it down once a few years back. Mechanically it has been great until about 2 weeks ago with this rough idle. There is fairing damage and a bit of damage to the left foot peg.

If I rev at while stopped or in neutral it sounds ok, just not while idling. When I take off is where I feel the roughness in 1st.

It did stall immediately after starting yeaterday. I started again and gave a bit of throttle and it stayed running just fine.
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 01:43 PM
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hmm. yea i hop on mine as soon as i see 98 pop up by the time i get to my road its already 120s so no biggies there. But 1st gear is the problem at low rpms? Once you get above 2500rpm in 1st goes away? the idling thing is throwing me.

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah. When it's still cold the idle is smooth as is take off but over 190F it's rough. Ya once I'm over around 2.5k rpm it's fine. Shifting is fine too. Wondering if maybe fuel/air ratio is messy at operating temps?
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 02:01 PM
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check your ICS and as well flush some injector cleaner through a few tanks.

If it is slow to pick up its the ICS and could cause rough idle.

A semi-clogged injector can cause all sorts of problems.

condition of air filter?
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschooldesigns View Post
check your ICS and as well flush some injector cleaner through a few tanks.

If it is slow to pick up its the ICS and could cause rough idle.

A semi-clogged injector can cause all sorts of problems.

condition of air filter?
Any recommendation on cleaner? Will seafoam do the trick? I had ruled out injectors because once I'm moving she runs along just fine.

I'm doing a tear down on her soon, haven't checked air filter yet but was planning on probably replacing that. I'll test the ics on the tear down too
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 03:20 PM
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Any recommendation on cleaner? Will seafoam do the trick? I had ruled out injectors because once I'm moving she runs along just fine.

I'm doing a tear down on her soon, haven't checked air filter yet but was planning on probably replacing that. I'll test the ics on the tear down too
Seafoam I've found works the best for just about anything! Toss it in your oil too before you change it for a squeaky clean engine =) {not a rep for seafoam but I've seen the difference and I love the stuff}

And you're going to notice any small problems in fueling when there is less of it going into the engine. It's also much harder to feel a slight bog at 10k with the horsepower building rather than at 1.5k.

And it's only a $10 dollar thing that I recommend doing every few months anyways with the quality of gas going down as it is (atleast where i live).

Another question for you (along with the unanswered airfilter question ) is how does the bike idle down to that speed? It will tell you something too; if the engine takes a longer time for the engine to idle down the first thing you should do is check your ics.
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschooldesigns View Post
Seafoam I've found works the best for just about anything! Toss it in your oil too before you change it for a squeaky clean engine =) {not a rep for seafoam but I've seen the difference and I love the stuff}

And you're going to notice any small problems in fueling when there is less of it going into the engine. It's also much harder to feel a slight bog at 10k with the horsepower building rather than at 1.5k.

And it's only a $10 dollar thing that I recommend doing every few months anyways with the quality of gas going down as it is (atleast where i live).

Another question for you (along with the unanswered airfilter question ) is how does the bike idle down to that speed? It will tell you something too; if the engine takes a longer time for the engine to idle down the first thing you should do is check your ics.
Cool. I'll get some seafoam for her.

I assume you mean if I rev in neutral? She comes right back down to idle speed but idle does bounce from 1200-1500 as it coughs/sputters
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
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I went and checked out our local bike shop and they recommended me some motul fuel cleaner. Tossed that puppy in on a half tank so should help clean any gunk out. I went for a half hour ride or so and the bike seemed pretty hot but I'm gonna chalk that up to the fuel cleaner for now. I was also riding in a lower than normal gear to push rpms up a bit.

Ordered a spark wrench so I can pull those guys out next weekend when it comes in. Haven't had a chance to pull the air filter.

There doesn't seem to have been much of a change yet from the cleaner but i've got it through the lines now so I'll let it sit in there for a bit and see how she runs later/tomorrow. If I have time tomorrow I"ll pull the air filter and check it out. Anything I should be looking for specifically with it?

Also any other easy tests I can do on the bike before tearing too deep into it?
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2012, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Just pulled air filter. Looks fine to me. Nothing is broken and it doesn't look too dirty at all. The filter box smelled like oil when I opened it, I'm thinking that is normal..? Put everything back together and started her up. Waited to hit operating temp and sounds the same as it did before.

I'm beginning to think more strongly that it is a misfire. I sat on the bike for about 5 minutes and listened really carefully to the engine firing between 1400rpm and 3500 rpm at different intervals as best I could. Once I pass around the 2-2.5k rpm mark it's very difficult to hear while moving, but while I was sitting there is sounded like it was misfiring, just very quickly.

So if it's a misfire.... its gotta be sparks, wiring, or..? Could it be injector problem or fuel lines still?
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 07:09 PM
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Just pulled air filter. Looks fine to me. Nothing is broken and it doesn't look too dirty at all. The filter box smelled like oil when I opened it, I'm thinking that is normal..? Put everything back together and started her up. Waited to hit operating temp and sounds the same as it did before.

I'm beginning to think more strongly that it is a misfire. I sat on the bike for about 5 minutes and listened really carefully to the engine firing between 1400rpm and 3500 rpm at different intervals as best I could. Once I pass around the 2-2.5k rpm mark it's very difficult to hear while moving, but while I was sitting there is sounded like it was misfiring, just very quickly.

So if it's a misfire.... its gotta be sparks, wiring, or..? Could it be injector problem or fuel lines still?
A slight smell of oil is normal, if you see puddles of it then you may have overfilled and it's blowing into the airbox.

Have you had all the scheduled maintenance done?

Because when the bike gets hot and does that, it indicates to me (on most of the vintage bikes that I've worked on atleast) that your compression is low due to too tight valve clearances. It simulates running rich and will cause that same sort of "cough".

When you get your plug wrench, do a quick compression check and make certain to have the throttle pinned open and all of the other spark plugs out to get the most accurate reading.

Once you get that we can work from there =)
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-14-2012, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by oldschooldesigns View Post
A slight smell of oil is normal, if you see puddles of it then you may have overfilled and it's blowing into the airbox.

Have you had all the scheduled maintenance done?

Because when the bike gets hot and does that, it indicates to me (on most of the vintage bikes that I've worked on atleast) that your compression is low due to too tight valve clearances. It simulates running rich and will cause that same sort of "cough".

When you get your plug wrench, do a quick compression check and make certain to have the throttle pinned open and all of the other spark plugs out to get the most accurate reading.

Once you get that we can work from there =)
I have had most of the maintenance done at the 12.8k mark. Haven't checked the valve clearances though - the bike is only at 12.8k KMs.. clearance check looks like its supposed to be done at 25.6k.

For compression check I need some kind of gauge right? Can I just get that at Canadian Tire? My service manual will point me in the right direction for the procedure and I am comfortable working on the bike. Any recommended brand?
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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-16-2012, 08:07 PM
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Once you see the compression you'll know whether you need to check it. And yes, there are a variety of gauges that will thread into the standard spark plug hole that we have. A quality gauge does help in the sense that you don't have to worry about false readings (almost tore an engine completely down before I switched gauges) but it is not really necessary as most gauges will get the job done, mine was just rather old and beat up.

The way engines are designed is that the entire valve train assembly will grow and shrink with the temperature of the entire engine and the most prominent time where wear occurs in this system is either when you're running it out of oil and you'll suffer a catastrophic break down or when the engine is initially being broken in.

If your clearances are too close your valves might not be closing all the way hence, the low compression and behaving like it's rich. But there again, we won't know until the numbers are found.


And as you pointed out before with the ignition wires, just go in and clean all the pertinent connectors with some electronics part cleaner and that will clear that up. With that few of miles on the clock unless it's been siting out in the weather you shouldn't have a failure in an otherwise (for the most part) tried and tested system.

Do you have access to any sort of P/C or aftermarket fuel controller? They usually run lean with aftermarket exhausts and no PC but I've seen weirder things happen.

And last question of this post, have you checked your battery at idle to see what the charge is showing?
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-16-2012, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschooldesigns View Post
Once you see the compression you'll know whether you need to check it. And yes, there are a variety of gauges that will thread into the standard spark plug hole that we have. A quality gauge does help in the sense that you don't have to worry about false readings (almost tore an engine completely down before I switched gauges) but it is not really necessary as most gauges will get the job done, mine was just rather old and beat up.

The way engines are designed is that the entire valve train assembly will grow and shrink with the temperature of the entire engine and the most prominent time where wear occurs in this system is either when you're running it out of oil and you'll suffer a catastrophic break down or when the engine is initially being broken in.

If your clearances are too close your valves might not be closing all the way hence, the low compression and behaving like it's rich. But there again, we won't know until the numbers are found.


And as you pointed out before with the ignition wires, just go in and clean all the pertinent connectors with some electronics part cleaner and that will clear that up. With that few of miles on the clock unless it's been siting out in the weather you shouldn't have a failure in an otherwise (for the most part) tried and tested system.

Do you have access to any sort of P/C or aftermarket fuel controller? They usually run lean with aftermarket exhausts and no PC but I've seen weirder things happen.

And last question of this post, have you checked your battery at idle to see what the charge is showing?
Thanks for the info dude! Very helpful :).

I have no PC or aftermarket fuel mods as far as I know on the bike. Just an eliminator and yosh slip on... and some flush mounts.

Haven't checked the battery at idle yet, but I did check it about a month ago standing off the bike and it was reading over 13v
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-16-2012, 10:47 PM
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previous owner of my bike had the same issue, took it to a shop and they blamed it on leaky fuel injectors. i swapped out the injectors when i first got it and that seemed to clear everything up, but when i was riding today i ran into exactly what you're talking about. thought maybe the idle was just set too low at first, but then i realized the bike was sputtering at low rpm as well.

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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-17-2012, 08:58 PM
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new note: started the bike up for a ride today, everything was going well until i hit traffic and then it started bogging down again ... tried to ride a bit harder keeping the rpms up and revving it every once in a while and it seemed to clear itself up. i think the bike just wants me to go faster hah
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-19-2012, 12:46 PM
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nice try

But not quite hahahaha.

Was there any abnormal sounds coming from the engine? Slight rattle coming from the right side of the case?
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-19-2012, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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DvSK - Thanks for jumping in, just don't hijack my thread please :)

oldschool - pulling plugs out today (I just got my new fairings in yesterday so I have stripped the bike and it will be really easy to work around now :D) I will post up some pictures of the plugs once I have them out...

IN response to your quick question for DvSK, I also have a slight ticking coming from the right side of the engine... thinking maybe the CCT needs to be adjusted/replaced?
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by erockdood View Post
Thanks for the info dude! Very helpful :).

I have no PC or aftermarket fuel mods as far as I know on the bike. Just an eliminator and yosh slip on... and some flush mounts.

Haven't checked the battery at idle yet, but I did check it about a month ago standing off the bike and it was reading over 13v
Glad to help even if its not necessarily what you needed!

I'd say just to double check again just to make certain, low voltage can cause weird problems.

Yay troubleshooting!!!
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-20-2012, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Glad to help even if its not necessarily what you needed!

I'd say just to double check again just to make certain, low voltage can cause weird problems.

Yay troubleshooting!!!
I talked to a mechanic at my local shop and he said because I have a slip on the bike may be leaning itself out when it gets up to operating temperature and he said a PC should solve my problems... I don't know why this would be the case because the bike was running just fine up until a few weeks ago when it started having the rough idle. Any thoughts on this?

I will check the voltage at idle and while the bike is off today and report back!
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-20-2012, 05:48 PM
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Depends on where you are and the quality of gas and whether they change their blends.

I know the gas blends in my area have already gone to the summer blend with less ethanol. But wherever you might be could have just transitioned.

Just an idea. But it sounds like you haven't changed anything when the problem started.

And running lean will typically result in higher operating temperatures regardless of the gas type. You'll also notice this on your spark plugs whenever you get them out as a whiteish/grey deposit on the plugs rather than a nice tan.

And being rich/lean would typically wouldn't "bounce" or cough as yours is doing rather they would produce constant poor conditions. Having a sporatic issue like this makes it difficult to find as you might check it at a time when the problem is not manifesting itself.
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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2012, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
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Finally pulled the plugs.. man that's a bit a pain coming from the front with just moving the rad. Seems it would be much easier if I took the whole top off but... I'm lazy

Here's the pics..

Plug 1



Plug 2



Plug 3



Plug 4

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-22-2012, 12:40 AM
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is that oil in the thread of plug 1? or just a visual trick?

there shouldn't be that much oil there! Outside of that when was the last time your plugs were replaced? It looks as if they've transitioned from running nicely (tan) to a darker color.

Have you noticed heavy oil consumption?
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-22-2012, 12:45 AM Thread Starter
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is that oil in the thread of plug 1? or just a visual trick?

there shouldn't be that much oil there! Outside of that when was the last time your plugs were replaced? It looks as if they've transitioned from running nicely (tan) to a darker color.

Have you noticed heavy oil consumption?
It was a bit of oil but it wasn't as bad as it looked in the picture - the thread wasn't filled by any means.

Plugs have never been replaced (bike on 12 800 km)

Bought the bike used a couple months ago. The guy that had it before me hadn't had it insured in a few years but had been riding it for short trips off and on. I haven't been able to notice much on oil consumption... changed the oil a couple weeks after I bought the bike. It had around 11 300km on it when I bought it.
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Well I took my plugs into the shop today and asked what the mechs thought about them having 13k KMs on them. They said they looked perfect so I'm thinking it's not the plugs.

Don't think it's my electrical. Everything seems fine with it. I'm starting to lean towards the fact that maybe I got some water in my tank when it was out in the rain for a day. It was low on gas during the day and when I filled up I'm wondering if maybe some water got into the tank because I wasn't having any issues until AFTER the fill up near the end of April. Gonna put all my new fairings on the bike this weekend, get some seafoam (already ran Motul injector cleaner through it) and just ride a few tanks worth if I can. See if anything improves. If not - should I pull fuel lines and clear them out. Maybe consider opening the throttle body and cleaning/letting it dry and putting it all back together?
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-26-2012, 10:55 PM Thread Starter
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Bump.. any other thoughts? It's still around after running a can of seafoam through it. It seems it starts to sputter a bit at a higher temperature now though than it did before... I think it's something in the fuel system.

Where should I look next to isolate it? Assuming it isn't my pump because I have no issues at upper RPMs past 2500.
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-31-2012, 08:45 PM
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Sorry about the late reply, man. Been running around for the past week; super busy at the shop -_-

If you think you had water in it you'd see the problem go away after a tank or two. More if there was a lot of water but it usually will become a much more pronounced problem with any more water.

I'm pretty well stumped right now. If you didn't change the octane, filter, plugs or electrical, then it shouldn't have just all the sudden started mis-behaving.

Did you ever get a chance to check your compression?
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