Master Cylinder Headache... - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 05:45 AM Thread Starter
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Master Cylinder Headache...

Hey guys,

I don't know if I am ed or what, but I cant seem to bleed the front master cylinder. I just bought an axial type front master cylinder to replace my brick style master cylinder on my 03 and I was super excited to put it on so I figured it would be just like every other time I have bled brakes, but I guess not.

So, first things first, I am not getting any fluid what so ever from the reservoir by doing two methods I know; pumping, holding, opening the bleed valve, then closing and releasing the lever, or opening the bleed valve, pump and hold, then close and release. The reservoir stays at the same level and the lever never gets any stiffer.

After a while of trying this, the little ball behind the plunger just hit the silver part in the picture below and felt solid. Is that supposed to happen? The lever just completely stopped and didn't complete the full range of motion and you can hear a clunk when it stops coming from inside the M/C. Is this silver female part supposed to move in and out and let fluid in and out? Could it be seized or something?

Before posting I searched through a couple threads and read that sometimes when a M/C is completely dry you need to vacuum suck the fluid in? i have never had to do this, just thought vacuum was for convenience. Even so, I might go over to my friends to use his vacuum bleeder and see if that works.





Anyways, I dont know what I am doing wrong and don't want to poke around and start breaking stuff so figured I would ask here. Thanks for your time in advance!

And before anyone suggests, I looked around and made sure nothing was physically stopping the lever.

Jake

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Last edited by jacob92icu; 02-22-2014 at 05:55 AM.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 06:34 AM
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Check the two little holes in the reservoir. May need to poke tiny wire to make sure both holes are clear. Watch the fluid in the open reservoir, should see pulse back or motion in fluid.

May need to use the vacuum on it.
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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoichiro_Honda View Post
Check the two little holes in the reservoir. May need to poke tiny wire to make sure both holes are clear. Watch the fluid in the open reservoir, should see pulse back or motion in fluid.

May need to use the vacuum on it.
I was thinking of trying something like this. I think Ill disconnect the reservoir from the hose and then remove the hose from the master cylinder and check for blockages in there as well. Does the inlet nipple on the master cylinder come out by pulling a little?

Also, should I use wd40 or some other method to try and free up that silver piece inside the master cylinder that is pictured above? Or is it okay for it to not be moving right now?

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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 02:46 PM
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Gravity bleed it. A master full of air won't draw fluid.

Just fill the reservoir, crack a caliper bleed nipple and wait
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 03:13 PM
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I had the same thing happen when I did the MC swap. I took a length of hose and stuck it on the bleed valve, then depressed the brake lever, then sucked on the hose until I saw some fluid in it, then released the brake lever. Once I saw the little bit of fluid in hose I went and bled the MC like normal

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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 05:23 PM
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buy a vacuum bleeder.....make this into a 15 minute job (really!).

I will never again just pump and bleed......and I am happy about that
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thank goodness someones had the same problems lol. I always over react a little when something didn't go smoothly. Ill try these tonight when i get home and report back here the results.

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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 06:01 PM
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Its likely sticking due to dry seals. Once you get fluid back in there it will probably be fine
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
Its likely sticking due to dry seals. Once you get fluid back in there it will probably be fine
Last time i listened to you wibbly wobbly my problem was resolved, sort of. So i shall do so again haha.

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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-22-2014, 07:34 PM
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Hope it all works out for you bud
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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:03 AM Thread Starter
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Okay,

I am getting a wee bit frustrated now, well pretty frustrated

I tried the two things you guys suggested, just cracking open the bleed valve letting gravity feed the fluid through, and then actually sucking to try and force the fluid through. Neither worked. So I figured I would take it off and start pulling things off.

I drained the reservoir first, then took off the line from the reservoir to the master cylinder. Fluid came out, good. Then I removed the nipple and fluid was in there. So, in conclusion of these acts, the reservoir and line and nipple inlet are all working good and clog free. Then I decided to take the snap ring off and remove the nipple completely to expose this:



Good right? Top one has a tiny hole and the bottom one looks like the valve thing you can see moving when pumping the lever with the cap off of the old master cylinder.

Fluid got all the way to that point with no assistance, and then stopped there. So I took the plunger off and had one more look. Heres what I see:



Sooooo, back to my original question, what the hell is that silver bucket thing supposed to do when this penor looking black thing inserts itself into the bucket? Cause I put some brake fluid into just this part specifically and put the plunger back on and pumped it manually no lever, and nothing happened, fluid went no where. So I have tracked it down to this thing not working properly.

I even made sure the bleed valve was good, and it was, no clogs or anything. I took it off and just blew through it with my mouth and air came out the other side where the lines connect. I tried doing this with the part where the fluid from the reservoir finally meets the master cylinder (first picture) and got blue in the face because it would let no air through what so ever.

I dont know where to go from here though... Dont even know if this piece is malfunctioning or not. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 06:06 AM
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the black pin is what connects your lever to the MC valve, the silver bucket thing. the pin end goes inside the lever, the rounded end goes into the "bucket" - pull the lever which pushes the pin which pushes the plunger which operates the MC - the pin also has a rubber boot around it. I'm assuming you know all that but I'm just making sure I'm reading your problem correctly. I'm also asuming you have the correct lever for the MC, an 03 lever won't work here.

if you press the plunger it should move in & out as it is spring operated, if it doesn't then theres the problem, you will most likely need a rebuild kit - part 21 on this page.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...29/parts.html#
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swan-rr5 View Post
the black pin is what connects your lever to the MC valve, the silver bucket thing. the pin end goes inside the lever, the rounded end goes into the "bucket" - pull the lever which pushes the pin which pushes the plunger which operates the MC - the pin also has a rubber boot around it. I'm assuming you know all that but I'm just making sure I'm reading your problem correctly. I'm also asuming you have the correct lever for the MC, an 03 lever won't work here.

if you press the plunger it should move in & out as it is spring operated, if it doesn't then theres the problem, you will most likely need a rebuild kit - part 21 on this page.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...29/parts.html#

Yes, i knew all of that except for the bit about the spring operated part. Which part is spring operated and is supposed to move in and out? The silver bucket?

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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:29 PM
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When you tried to gravity bleed it did you have the lever pulled or just at normal rest?

Did you open a caliper bleeder or the master bleeder?


You are WAY over thinking this
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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
When you tried to gravity bleed it did you have the lever pulled or just at normal rest?

Did you open a caliper bleeder or the master bleeder?


You are WAY over thinking this
I opened the master bleeder, was i supposed to open the caliper bleeder? Or both?

Also, the m/c was at normal rest when i cracked the bleeder on it.

I know I'm probably over thinking it, but it seems to me like nothing happens when pumping the lever, as if the components behind the silver bucket are all seized and corroded.

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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:38 PM
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get over the sliver bucket lol.


fill the reservoir, crack the caliper bleeder and let it sit.

any fluid in the line will siphon fluid from the reservoir through the master.

you can't take a dry master cylinder and pump away at it expecting results, this doesn't work at all. blowing and sucking on it with your mouth is just ridiculous.

master cylinders are startlingly simple. it's just a hydraulic plunger pump. quit messing with it and just gravity bleed it.

so many people just put fluid in the res, and start pumping away, this will get you nowhere.
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
get over the sliver bucket lol.


fill the reservoir, crack the caliper bleeder and let it sit.

any fluid in the line will siphon fluid from the reservoir through the master.

you can't take a dry master cylinder and pump away at it expecting results, this doesn't work at all. blowing and sucking on it with your mouth is just ridiculous.

master cylinders are startlingly simple. it's just a hydraulic plunger pump. quit messing with it and just gravity bleed it.

so many people just put fluid in the res, and start pumping away, this will get you nowhere.
So do nothing with the m/c bleeder? And how long shall i leave it just sitting with the caliper bleeder cracked? I assume crack the bleeder on the left caliper from riders perspective?

Such an angry wise man wibbly haha ;D

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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 03:51 PM
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no, there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure from the res to master to do anything at the master bleeder yet.

any or both of the caliper bleeders (put a hose to a catch bottle at the caliper). then just wait.


eventually you'll see fluid coming out from the caliper and into the bottle. keep an eye on the reservoir and keep it full.

once you have fluid flowing out the caliper or calipers, close the bleed nipples then bleed at the master with the standard pump and bleed method.

you don't have to pump the lever 1000 times before bleeding at the nipple, this breaks up any air bubbles into hundreds of tiny ones, making it a longer process.

pull the lever, crack the bleeder, release the lever slowly, then pull again, bleed again.


that's all there is to it.
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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
no, there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure from the res to master to do anything at the master bleeder yet.

any or both of the caliper bleeders (put a hose to a catch bottle at the caliper). then just wait.


eventually you'll see fluid coming out from the caliper and into the bottle. keep an eye on the reservoir and keep it full.

once you have fluid flowing out the caliper or calipers, close the bleed nipples then bleed at the master with the standard pump and bleed method.

you don't have to pump the lever 1000 times before bleeding at the nipple, this breaks up any air bubbles into hundreds of tiny ones, making it a longer process.

pull the lever, crack the bleeder, release the lever slowly, then pull again, bleed again.


that's all there is to it.
Alright, gunna go try this now. I am going to open only one caliper bleeder cause I only have one clear hose lol. Hopefully it doesnt take forever.

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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 04:31 PM
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I did mine in 20 mins. That's doing one caliper then the other.
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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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I did mine in 20 mins. That's doing one caliper then the other.
Just to make sure I have it correct, fill reservoir, crack a bleed nipple on one of the calipers, with the bleed nipple closed at the M/C and just wait for fluid to show in my clear hose?

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 04:57 PM
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Yeah just let it drip though.
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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah just let it drip though.
No fluid in the cup to catch fluid then?

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:11 PM
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Wtf are you talking about? Haha just put a catch bottle and go
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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Haha Idk...

Ok, so I have the left caliper cracked open and everything else tightened up, so far I see no fluid flowing, and the fluid at the reservoir is at the same level from when I started

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:24 PM
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just give it a bit! man people are so impatient
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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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just give it a bit! man people are so impatient
Especially me

I shall give it a bit. A tiny bit of fluid came out the very first second after I cracked it, but thats it right now.

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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:34 PM
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it'll come.

you can pinch the hose from the master to the reservoir a few times to push any air in there back into the res.
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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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it'll come.

you can pinch the hose from the master to the reservoir a few times to push any air in there back into the res.
I cut the line in half and have both nipples open now, and I pinched the line like you said and one lonely air bubble came up to the res lol

Still waiting

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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-23-2014, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Ah hah, theres about a half inch of fluid on each line now,

Wibbly...

If this works...

How much fluid should I be waiting for?

Still watching

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