What could cause this type of erratic Dyno map? - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Question What could cause this type of erratic Dyno map?

2010, 6K miles, owned since new
mods relevant to fault?:
bazzaz Z-fi
HM GP QS (tapped into CKP and Speed sensor)
Alarm
K&N airfilter
Pair block off plates and removal

Having taken it to dyno tuner, they told me that my bike is running very poor and pretty much has no power above 11K. Personally I have always felt the bike felt a bit "gutless" above 11K, but put that down to a poor map done by the previous tuner. However the HM guys said no, this is not a mapping issue but an issue with the bike. They even tried adjusting the fuel map to see if it made things worse or better to no effect.

So rather than continue with the tune I told them to figure out the problem in the remaining time whcih they were more than happy to do.

What they tried:
1) Remove the bazzaz unit andcheck wiring- no change
2) Remove/disable alarm as it is wired to cut fuel pump- No change
3) Check secondary injectors for dirt and clean- Look and operate fine.
4) Remove QS- No change

At this point it was getting late and they had another bike booked in. I decided to leave and they sent me away with a couple of things to try out.

What would people suggest could cause this type of map? I have a couple of ideas and the dyno centre have agreed.



Before anyone criticises the dyno tuner, think again. I had HM racings owner, Steve Smith, working on my bike and getting ready to tune the bike so am fully confident in what they told me and what they did to fault find. They kept me up to date throughout, and didnt even charge me for all the labour and are still trouble shooting with me via email before I go back for a tune or for them to fault find themselves further.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:04 PM
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Do you have a z bomb on there? 08 ecu?
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Its UK spec bike, which does not require the Zbomb. Running stock 09 ECU.

I did mention this to them and they said emissions restrictions did not affect UK bikes.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:20 PM
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The only thing I could think of would be an issue with the pulse generator. Make sure its well secured and properly aligned etc.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Will check that out in the Service manual. Cheers Wibbly. (Although this is not what they suggested.)

Just received an email, they are trying to source a donor bike that they could swap parts off of to check which part is erroneous on my bike.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:39 PM
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I'm basing the fact that the power fluctuates up and down several times on a spark or timing issue. Air or fuel you would expect a smooth diminishing power curve, not choppy
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
I'm basing the fact that the power fluctuates up and down several times on a spark or timing issue. Air or fuel you would expect a smooth diminishing power curve, not choppy
interesting, this is not what was suggested to me...
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Also, the issue only occurs above say 10/11K RPM, and is reproducible. will not occur below this, only issue below this RPM was a very poor map, which they said they would fix once the top end is sorted.
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 04:48 PM
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Well if the fuel controller didn't change anything then fuel pressure would be the next suspect... But I wouldn't expect a curve like that on dropping fuel pressure.

Intermittent function of the secondaries maybe. It's tough to say really
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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Indeed Wibbly.

Had the guys at HM stumped. It's like a puzzle now for them I feel.

They are going down the lines of fuel starvation. I will be looking at my fuel pump at some point and checking it over and the strainer on it.

Thanks for your thoughts Wibbly. Much appreciated and if anything else pops up please do share.
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 05:45 PM
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Do these have fuel filter fitted? if so then that could be worth changing, maybe a blockage or starvation to the upper injectors, is the air filter clean (higher revs need more air). Im no expert but just throwing ideas out there.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XoHoyoX View Post
Do these have fuel filter fitted? if so then that could be worth changing, maybe a blockage or starvation to the upper injectors, is the air filter clean (higher revs need more air). Im no expert but just throwing ideas out there.
The fuel filter is part of the fuel pump unit and cannot be removed/replaced. There is however a fuel strainer that can be cleaned from the surface.

Air filter was cleaned and re-oiled 50 miles ago in preparation for the dyno.

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-19-2014, 06:04 PM
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I'm just here to say I'm curious to see the outcome, so no help. Interesting thread discussion, tho and hopefully you get it sorted out.
Good luck.



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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 12:55 AM
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Another thought af...

Clutch slip. Sounds stupid but id look into it.

Possible tire spin on the dyno? That should be obvious though
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 04:19 AM Thread Starter
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Clutch slip im sure its not. Also the mechanic took it for a ride and didnt mention it.

The fact it can be reproduced on the road means tyre slipping wouldnt be the cause?

Thanks wibbly
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 06:24 AM
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Where were they getting the tach signal from?

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
The only thing I could think of would be an issue with the pulse generator. etc.
a pulse generator?

what's that? fuel injection pulse?



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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:26 AM
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Contrary to what the shop said I'm leaning towards the electrical end of things and thinking coils, pulse generator like Wibbly suggested or dare I say it ECU, though I personally think about 90% of the "ECU failures" on this forum are bunk and not actually failed ECUs.

It's just a thought as well but you said you oiled the air filter right before the tune, you're very sure you did it correctly using the right amount of oil as well? Not saying that's the cause but I've seen over saturated filters cause all sorts of running issues.

I'd personally visually look at vent hoses, fuel line and systems and your QS wiring because vibration (or something) could cause false triggering so maybe try to pull the power to that and see what happens. Make sure your fuel pressure is ok too, should be a port to check that.

Tuned in to hear what you find, interesting.

Mike
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clx View Post
a pulse generator?

what's that? fuel injection pulse?
It's what fires the spark plugs, or more accurately tells the coil on the plug to fire.

In the old days you had a distributer cap and rotor to fire your spark plugs, that is the modern equivalent of a rotor.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:50 AM
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Hey out of curiosity what rpm is your qs set at to start functioning. Is it around the point where the dyno readout gets wacky?

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 01:00 PM
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Hmm..tuff one there..a/f ratio leans out pretty gradually so I'd have to go with the secondary inj or fuel feed. Another possibility is that your catalytic converter might be partially plugged. If it can't push exhaust out fast enough it'll back up into the cylinder and go lean..
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe81 View Post
Where were they getting the tach signal from?
No idea to be honest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miweber929 View Post
Contrary to what the shop said I'm leaning towards the electrical end of things and thinking coils, pulse generator like Wibbly suggested or dare I say it ECU, though I personally think about 90% of the "ECU failures" on this forum are bunk and not actually failed ECUs.

It's just a thought as well but you said you oiled the air filter right before the tune, you're very sure you did it correctly using the right amount of oil as well? Not saying that's the cause but I've seen over saturated filters cause all sorts of running issues.

I'd personally visually look at vent hoses, fuel line and systems and your QS wiring because vibration (or something) could cause false triggering so maybe try to pull the power to that and see what happens. Make sure your fuel pressure is ok too, should be a port to check that.

Tuned in to hear what you find, interesting.

Mike
Will look into the air filter. Was cleaned as per K&N's instructions, however I may have been overzealous with the oil.

Will be removing the fuel pump later this weekend if I get a chance and checking the strainer as mentioned before.

RE the QS, this was removed and is currently disabled on the bike, so the QS has been ruled out as the cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrkat28 View Post
Hey out of curiosity what rpm is your qs set at to start functioning. Is it around the point where the dyno readout gets wacky?

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QS works at any RPM. Does not have a set RPM where it will start operating. One of the advantages of the HM GP QS is that it makes shifts at any RPM MUCH smoother. and as bove the QS is not the fault as this has been removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teetopps View Post
Hmm..tuff one there..a/f ratio leans out pretty gradually so I'd have to go with the secondary inj or fuel feed. Another possibility is that your catalytic converter might be partially plugged. If it can't push exhaust out fast enough it'll back up into the cylinder and go lean..
Fuel starvation is the primary cause according to the HM.

Do not have a cat on the bike so can't be that.
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Found this on another site. Dyno looks identical to mine. I'm just praying it's a fuel pump issue which will be a very simple fix for myself


" Suzuki SV1000 Fuel Pump Fault
Here's what will happen if the fuel pump loses pressure and can't deliver enough fuel. It will normally feel like fuel starvation, and look how white the end of exhaust is getting. On unleaded fuel it should be black. Once the fuel pump was replaced, for the most part the problem was solved. As is usual with a slipon muffler it was still running lean so we also fitted a PCV and custom mapped it.

"Feel the difference" "


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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, whipped the fuel pump off this morning and got access to the fuel strainer.









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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 01:21 PM
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that looks kinda grimy but idk professionally or anything

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 04:36 PM
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Dammnn..that looks terrible..where are you getting gas from?
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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I use Shell V-power Nitro + here in the UK. Never use anything unless apart from once which was a while ago when there was fuel shortages.

Showed those pictures to HM and he said that's fine, just clean it and put it back. I'm pretty sure if you guys took your fuel pump out it would be in a similar condition. It's doing its job!

I have been instructed to now remove two wires I installed to tap into my speed sensor and crank position sensor for the QS. They think there could possibly some radio frequency interference. Will see what happens after that....
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
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Update: so I cleaned the fuel pump and reinstalled and the problem did seem to disappear. Bike revved cleanly to the red line.

However this weekend, I took it for a quick spin and did 2 gear 3 pulls to the limiter and the bike hung at 14/14.5k rpm and wouldnt rev any higher.

Either the problem is intermittent or by coincidence it got better, or it is the fuel pump?

How easy/hard should it be to blow through the fuel pump/filter? I was blowing back against the flow fuel so into the outlet. It was near impossible to and even with compressed air, no air was coming out the other side
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-12-2014, 05:24 AM Thread Starter
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Update:
Well the problem appears to be RESOLVED! It would seem that the wires that were used to tap into the speed sensor and CKP were picking up Radio frequency interference as per HM's suggestion.

I took it down to HM and had their mechanic who test rode the bike before take it for spin. He said it was running perfectly fine and ready to be mapped. so happy days!!

I have now booked it in for a map in a couple of weeks so fingers crossed the problem stays away. I will then look to re-installing the HM GP QS again in a manner to prevent this issue from reoccurring.

Thanks for all the advice and support!
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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FINAL UPDATE: ISSUE RESOLVED

For completions sake as I hate these threads and the OP doesn't come back to update for the possible future benefit of others.

Got my bike mapped today after removing the two wires that were tapped into the CKP and Speed sensor and that completely resolved the issue. Steve from HM said they had this issue once before and said its basically like hanging an aerial onto a signal lead, and this aerial picks up all kinds of radio frequency interference from the bike, and in this case the coil packs at high revs.

So what he rather amazingly did, was make up a new loom for my HM GP QS that makes it plug and play and basically plugs inline with the CKP and Speed sensor so no need to splice in. To top it off, he did this FOC and apologised (rather unnecessarily) for all the hassle. TOP GUYS who stand by their product!

So happy days, and my bike is now smoother and quicker then ever.

Thank you all to all those who contributed with suggestions

Dyno graphs can be found in my build thread located here
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