RR8 not starting, wiring? Ecu? Fuel pump? Help. - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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RR8 not starting, wiring? Ecu? Fuel pump? Help.

Hi
My story is.
I lost one set of keys when I got the bike (oops). a year ago I move house and lose my other set so I have no keys and no alarm thob (doh) I didn't want to pay to get new keys and ecu cos of the hiss as it's not worth it cos I crashed it on a track day about a year ago.
So I done some research and bought an American ecu and wired pin 5 to pin 16 (however I haven't used a pin just pushed wire in hole and taped it)
I have done the bypass on the bas and just bridged it.
I don't have any headlights as they were damaged and the headlight wiring loom is damaged.
I have removed the datatool alarm which seem to just plug into the main wiring loom
So I go to start it and it just turns over. The kill switch relay works, the fuel pump relay works but I can't hear the pump prime. I have checked all the fuses and all ok.

I'm not sure what else to do

Thanks
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 01:29 PM
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(i think)if the headlights are not working or at least wired to simulate them working then im fairly sure bike will not start so if you say the headlight loom is damaged id think that might be where your problem is( or at least worth a look)

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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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(i think)if the headlights are not working or at least wired to simulate them working then im fairly sure bike will not start so if you say the headlight loom is damaged id think that might be where your problem is( or at least worth a look)
Thanks for the response. I guess that would make sense. There must be a way to bypass that too for people who do track? I did search but everyone tapes the lens (what I did) but some people must have been in my situation before?

Thanks
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ash2020 View Post
(i think)if the headlights are not working or at least wired to simulate them working then im fairly sure bike will not start so if you say the headlight loom is damaged id think that might be where your problem is( or at least worth a look)

this is confirmed I've had a similar problem. i would definitely go back over it
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-24-2014, 09:26 PM
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Headlights don't need to be wired in, none of their associated wiring needs to be there at all, all you need from that entire harness that goes into the front fairing is the BAS and it's 3 wires. On top of that, you don't need the gauges or any of their wiring, just the ignition. Everything on the left clipon can go, you do need the right one for the kill switch and starter switch. Out of all that stuff there is very little you actually need.

The reason we talk about headlight in this sort of situation is for the 05-06 as the headlight and BAS grounds are shared and go to a ground point that tends to burn out. So if your headlights aren't working there is a good chance the ground is burnt out and your BAS will be preventing the fuel pump from priming.

Now, as to solving your problem, where are you from? Where did you do your research on where to connect what? And which plugs did you push those wires into?
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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Headlights don't need to be wired in, none of their associated wiring needs to be there at all, all you need from that entire harness that goes into the front fairing is the BAS and it's 3 wires. On top of that, you don't need the gauges or any of their wiring, just the ignition. Everything on the left clipon can go, you do need the right one for the kill switch and starter switch. Out of all that stuff there is very little you actually need.

The reason we talk about headlight in this sort of situation is for the 05-06 as the headlight and BAS grounds are shared and go to a ground point that tends to burn out. So if your headlights aren't working there is a good chance the ground is burnt out and your BAS will be preventing the fuel pump from priming.

Now, as to solving your problem, where are you from? Where did you do your research on where to connect what? And which plugs did you push those wires into?
Hello,

I'm from the uk.
I have done most of my research on this forum.
Because my bike has an EU ecu with hiss, I got an A ecu and found I need to do some wiring to power up the ecu. I spliced pin 5 wire from the black ecu plug to pin 16 on the grey ecu plug. Because there is no wire present and had a blank in pin 16, I didn't have a spare oem pin I just stripped the wire approx 2 inches and pushed it into the pin 16 hole and secured it with tape just so it got contact with the ecu. I know it's not the correct way but I was looking at a temporary way just to get it started. I also searched where to get a pin from and can't find any :/
As for the bas it has 3 wires from where it plugs to the loom, I bridged the two outer wires. When I did this with the ignition on, I could hear the cut off relay work.
Thanks
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 02:58 AM
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You should be able to get a pin straight from honda.

Pin B16 is the IMOV pin, immobiliser voltage, for the 07+ it needs to have 12V on it.

I'd start with chasing down a pin and making sure you have a good connection there as that will stop your fuel pump from priming. Even a used on will be fine if you're careful with it.
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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You should be able to get a pin straight from honda.

Pin B16 is the IMOV pin, immobiliser voltage, for the 07+ it needs to have 12V on it.

I'd start with chasing down a pin and making sure you have a good connection there as that will stop your fuel pump from priming. Even a used on will be fine if you're careful with it.
Ill see if I can get one from Honda (might take a while) but I did see a video on YouTube where some mentioned he wasn't using some wires in the ecu plug which were Pear valve,flapper valve and O2 sensor. Can I not remove one of them pin and use that temporary?
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 06:03 AM
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No, each of those will cause a fault condition to set on the ECU.

Is your bike showing any FI codes?

There are a few immobiliser related wires going to the ECU that relate to HISS that you no longer need, you can take one of those. Just look at the US wiring diagram to work out which wires you have that you no longer need.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 06:21 AM Thread Starter
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No, each of those will cause a fault condition to set on the ECU.

Is your bike showing any FI codes?

There are a few immobiliser related wires going to the ECU that relate to HISS that you no longer need, you can take one of those. Just look at the US wiring diagram to work out which wires you have that you no longer need.
My gauge broke off from the bike too, I will eventually get one.
Yeah I could use one of them wires but I don't know where any wiring diagrams are, or the ones that come up on google are hard to read. You don't happen to know which pin I could use or point me in the right direction to a decent wiring diagram?
What about if I chase back the wires from the hiss through the main loom to the ecu and remove that pin, is it as simple as that?
Thanks
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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-25-2014, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Ok so I have traced 1 of the 4 wires from the hiss plug. Came from pin 32 in white ecu plug (second from last) I used that pin for the pin 16 and still nothing. Fuel pump is not priming!
I took the two plugs off the fuel tank (at bottom) and tested for power and was nothing in both plugs. There is only 2 wires to each plug and one on each is an earth but the other wire on each has no power at all.

Are there anything else I need to check that will affect the fuel pump. How do I test the fuel pump is actually working?

Just thinking what about my alarm system? The main loom seemed to have a plug for it but I just unplugged it and removed it, is that all it was or will there be an immobiliser in there somewhere? Was a datatool s4.
Or I'm thinking maybe where I crashed it could have damaged something causing this maybe?
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-26-2014, 05:02 AM
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Unplugging the alarm won't have helped...

Start with plugging that back in, or if you can't do that do you have a wiring diagram for it?
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-26-2014, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Unplugging the alarm won't have helped...

Start with plugging that back in, or if you can't do that do you have a wiring diagram for it?
No diagram for it :/

Because I lost my keys I lost my alarm thobs too :( so that's why I removed my alarm. I have never removed one before, but all I did was chase the wires and remove everything. Nothing was spliced in to other wires, there was just a plug coming out of the wiring loom that the alarm plug fitted (maybe designed for the bike) I chased the plug wires through the loom thinking it was part of the alarm but it seemed factory fitted by the way it was done. However there are connections to other wires and secured with blue tape but the reason I thought it was factory fitted is because I came across other wires that had connectors with the same tape that did not relate to the alarm. Also with the alarm removed the plug coming out of the loom doesn't plug into anything else.

This is starting to be a right pain.

How do I test if the pump is working?

Thanks
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-26-2014, 08:27 AM
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An alarm usually cuts the fuel pump at some point, whether that be the engine stop relay, fuel cut relay or the pump itself. It's highly likely that your problem is somewhere along those lines.

Can you take a few photos of the alarm plug and where it's wires connect into the harness? From there we can probably work out how it was wired in and what needs to be done to remove it properly.

And that alarm is an aftermarket one, not a factory one so the harness will have been modified to fit it. If it was done by a previous owner there is a pretty good chance they've used the same style connectors elsewhere for other things, and if they did a good job it may well look factory fitted.
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-26-2014, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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I wasn't sure if it was purely an alarm or if it had an immobiliser too.

I have some pics, excuse the mess of the wires as I have stripped all the loom to chase all the wires to see where they went.
So the plug where the alarm plugged into the loom
The plug in the picture is next to the cut off switch.
The masking tape is what I have added (also further up the pic) to put the wires close together to help me find them later.


These earth wires are under the fuel tank, and has blue tape. While stripping the loom I have come across lots of wires here and there with same connections and blue tape. For some reason the wire goes in as one then out as two?


Came across this yellow box wrapped up in the loom, not sure what it's for, chased the wires to the injectors.


Back to the alarm plug on the loom.
There are 5 wires
The green wire went to one of the fuel pump plugs, but had a split junction wrapped in blue (see photo of green wires)

The orange wire goes down the left side of the bike by the rear pillion seat, also had a split junction in and wrapped in blue.


The light blue wire went to a grey plug which routed to the left handle bar controls (horn, indicators etc) can't remember if that had a split junction with blue tape. But I think it does when zooming in in picture 1



The two white wires routed to the relay and fuse box and connected to there each fuse but I didn't think to look what fuse it was. But both had split junction wrapped in blue.

I hope this makes sense and gives you an idea.

Thanks

Last edited by Burnsey_100; 05-26-2014 at 04:30 PM.
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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-27-2014, 03:19 AM
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Ok, so it just looks like it's an alarm then, no immobiliser function.

In that case it's still likely to be the ecu. If you look at the fuel cut relay you'll see one wire going from it to the ECU, test that one to see if it's switching to ground when you first turn the bike on.
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-27-2014, 12:00 PM
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probably of no relevance but i dont suppose it could be a faulty kill switch could it as they are prone to failing and need dismantling and cleaning

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,red lowers,yoshi rs5,oem seat cowl,vcr rearsets,stomp grip,,headlight covers,0.875 springs,,flush mounts,fe,spools,oem numberboards,rim tape,cam mount ,db screen,lightech carbon mirrors,res socks,gi-pro,led pegs,carbon tank panels/yoke trim/ hugger/chain guard/front fender/fuel trim,carbon wrapped sub frame,gb engine covers,numerous carbon wrapped pieces,RED mids, suspension set up
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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-27-2014, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so it just looks like it's an alarm then, no immobiliser function.

In that case it's still likely to be the ecu. If you look at the fuel cut relay you'll see one wire going from it to the ECU, test that one to see if it's switching to ground when you first turn the bike on.
Ok so I had a look at the fuel pump relay in fuse box.
The wire to the ecu is the brown, black stripe with two silver dots.


Here is with the ignition on


This is what happened when it was cranked


I thought I would check the solid brown wire, which routes to the brown plug at the bottom of the fuel tank.


This is what happened when it was cranked


So I hope this is what you meant on turning the bike on (cranking it)

I would just like to add, the engine stop relay clicks when I turn the ignition on then straight after the fuel pump relay clicks, then there is a delay click from the fuel pump relay I don't know if that's normal

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probably of no relevance but i dont suppose it could be a faulty kill switch could it as they are prone to failing and need dismantling and cleaning

Hi, I'm not sure there is a problem there because when I flick the kill switch I hear the relays working again. Would it still do this if there was a problem?

Last edited by Burnsey_100; 05-27-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 08:23 AM
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Ok.

So with the kill switch in the run position.

When you turn the ignition to on you should be able to feel both the engine stop and fuel cut relays turn on, then after about 3 seconds the fuel cut relay should turn off. Once you start cranking the bike the fuel cut relay should turn on again.

From what you've done there it looks like this is what's happening which means that the immobiliser pins on the ECU have all been wired in correctly and there is a good chance that the ECU should be working correctly.

So, from there we would look at the brown wire going to the fuel pump but you've already done that and it looks fine. Next step is to measure the resistance of the green wire to the negative terminal of the battery. If that's all ok then it looks like you just need a new fuel pump. To confirm it measure the resistance across the two pins on the fuel pump.
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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Yes that is what happened with the relays.

I'm not sure how to test the resistance. But this is what I did.

The green wire is earthed to the body. The pic is with the ignition on


And this is the reading when it was being cranked.


When I test the plug on the fuel tank, I put the voltmeter - in the green wire and the + in the brown wire and it doesn't record any voltage
I would have thought there would be voltage here to turn on the fuel pump?

Also is there a way I can power up the fuel pump manually with just wires to see if it will start up the pump?

I assume the other plug on the fuel tank is for the fuel gauge?
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-28-2014, 07:23 PM
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So it looks like the earth is fine.

To take a resistance measurement you put the meter dial around to the range with the omega symbol (the one that looks like a horseshoe)

Start with the most clockwise one and with the leads across what you want to measure take a reading. If what you get is lower than the top of next lowest range then move your dial down one until you get to the lowest range that produces a result. Id the resistance is too high for the range you have selected it will show a 1 by itself on the left hand side of the display.

You can only take resistance measurements on circuits that dont have power supplied.

If you want to put power into the pump put a wire from the positive side of the battery to where the brown wire goes and then another wire from the side where the green wire goes to the chassis of the bike.

Even though the risk is quite low you should always avoid making connections at the battery where a spark may occur as when batteries discharge they produce hydrogen and oxygen gas... hello hindenburg.
For the same reason you shouldn't make those connections at or in the near vicinity of the fuel pump/tank either due to fuel vapor.

Please excuse any spelling errors as I'm typing on my phone
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-01-2014, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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So it looks like the earth is fine.

To take a resistance measurement you put the meter dial around to the range with the omega symbol (the one that looks like a horseshoe)

Start with the most clockwise one and with the leads across what you want to measure take a reading. If what you get is lower than the top of next lowest range then move your dial down one until you get to the lowest range that produces a result. Id the resistance is too high for the range you have selected it will show a 1 by itself on the left hand side of the display.

You can only take resistance measurements on circuits that dont have power supplied.

If you want to put power into the pump put a wire from the positive side of the battery to where the brown wire goes and then another wire from the side where the green wire goes to the chassis of the bike.

Even though the risk is quite low you should always avoid making connections at the battery where a spark may occur as when batteries discharge they produce hydrogen and oxygen gas... hello hindenburg.
For the same reason you shouldn't make those connections at or in the near vicinity of the fuel pump/tank either due to fuel vapor.

Please excuse any spelling errors as I'm typing on my phone
Ok, I tested the resistance in the green wire, however it seems to fluctuate a it, but it did this with other wires I tested too.

I tested the fuel pump directly from the battery, nothing! So I thought I would take the pump out. There was some rust on the pump, and the all inside the fuel tank. So I guess this is my problem then.
Is there a way to fix the pump or will it need replacing?
And the rust in the fuel tank, will that need replacing or can I use something to get rid of it all?
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-01-2014, 10:04 AM
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The pump will simply need replacing. If it was still running and it was just the filter that was clogged there may have been some hope of resurrection but now it's stopped all together it's basically toast.

For the tank, have a look on google. There are a bunch of different products like POR15 and whatnot that will do the job, both in removing the rust and then protecting the metal. Then there are the home remedies like molasses (which works amazingly well btw, if you've time to let it do it's thing), electro methods and acids ect.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-02-2014, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks so much, I'll give that a go and I'll let you know soon how I get on :)
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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The pump will simply need replacing. If it was still running and it was just the filter that was clogged there may have been some hope of resurrection but now it's stopped all together it's basically toast.

For the tank, have a look on google. There are a bunch of different products like POR15 and whatnot that will do the job, both in removing the rust and then protecting the metal. Then there are the home remedies like molasses (which works amazingly well btw, if you've time to let it do it's thing), electro methods and acids ect.
Hello,

I have an update. I have tested my new pump and it works lovely so once the rust remover has finished tomorrow I will bolt it all back together and try it.
Just one thought I have to put fuel in from he bottom of the tank, any ideas how to remove the fuel cap without the key and I'll replace it with a non lockable one
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 07:08 AM
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Drill the lock out from the top.
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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Great news, the bike started (struggled to the first time) but it only idles for 2 seconds and cuts out. It also cuts out when you try to apply throttle.
Could there be not enough fuel getting through?
Any ideas

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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 04:17 AM
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Probably not, check you haven't pinched a line.
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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Ok will do,
There are two rubber hoses that connect to the bottom of the fuel tank, what do they do? I'm assuming one is an over flow and the other is ventilation. One has a 45 degree plastic end and the hose is very long and I don't know where it goes.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 07:27 AM
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Correct on both counts. The long one goes down next to the front sprocket and is the overflow.
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