600RR Rectifire/Regulator Question - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-30-2014, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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600RR Rectifier/Regulator Question HELP!!! 18V

OK I have a 2004 600 RR and have read that people upgrading there Rectifier/Regulators to a newer model, is this ok to do?
As I have the below R/R on my bike just now which maybe having issues

How can I test this to see if its faulty and anyone have a link to the upgarded type
Please list of steps to do as I have the fairing off and R/R off just now

Thanks


Last edited by EWOKie; 08-28-2014 at 06:22 PM.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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.....anyone?

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 01:52 PM
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Easiest way is to check voltage at the battery with the bike running at around 5K RPM. You should get 14-14.5 volts.
I'm not sure about the replacement, but I know I've seen it posted several times before.


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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 07:19 PM
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The 05/06 design would fit just fine



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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 10:46 PM
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The 05/06 design should fit just fine



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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, I just ordered another regulator as I think this one is goosed
But the one I have ordered the 3 Yellow wires dont have a plug is there a certain way these have to be in line?

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 10:39 AM
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As long as you don't cross any of them it should be perfectly fine. Just make sure your solder is nice and neat when you splice them in. Otherwise you'll create high resistance zones and potentially fry that wire.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Back again...
Replaced with the newer one and seems ok I think along with making the updated mount/cover for it as mentioned in another post.

Fully Chardged battery on trickle and started her up and idling bike goes to 14+ as it should.
Now when I start the bike the headlight goes out when pressing ignition button then comes back on but its like its flickering as well as the sidelight if you know what I mean then stabilises itself....


Anyway... My gf wants to go for her cbt so this is what I did.
Brought the bike out from garage and let her sit on ma baby (on paddock stand so rear wheel is in the air)
Started the bike and went through levers and pedals etc
Literally for 5 mins giving it slight revs for her to get used to the bite on the clutch lever
Switched engine off and wanted her to start the bike and go through indicators etc..
but click click again as before
battery was low... now its been on trickle again and starts at the bike is back up to 14+ so r/r seems ok

Any help please?

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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Update...

So bike has had new Starter Solenoid, Regulator/Rectifier and now New Battery
Gave the New Battery a trickle charge before fitting.. and goes with no faults (so far)

Here is a video not sure on whats happening with headlights dimming and when revving it gets brighter
Think the meter I have for checking is faulty

Any info please....



Last edited by EWOKie; 08-28-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 03:31 PM
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Did you ever use the new battery while you had the old rectifier wired in?

Edit: Sorry, missed the "now" new battery. I'm assuming you got it after you wired in the new regulator. Is the rectifier grounded properly? When I replaced the regulator on my Virago 535 years back I messed that up and it killed the battery in a trip...

Edit 2: Did you ever check to make sure your alternator is working as it should?

Last edited by Lyoha; 08-28-2014 at 03:53 PM.
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 05:13 PM
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You have issues, WAY to high a charging voltage, you're killing you battery and electrical system.

Did you buy a new or used RR? Thinking used, because that one ain't right or it's not hooked up right. If you don't fix it you'll potentially kill your entire system.

Get a manual, go through the steps to check the charging system out.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah its a New R/R I bought HERE
Battery HERE

Tried the old R/R that I thought was faulty and at idle its at 13.4v and same with rev's to 5K or above just sits at 13.4v'ish.
Everything off battery reads 12.67v.

Stator has been tested and seems fine with posts of 'how to' check on here.

Where are all the ground connections on this bike,
ie. the black wire from ground from battery where is that going?


Last edited by EWOKie; 08-28-2014 at 06:23 PM.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 07:32 PM
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For sh!ts and giggles set your multimeter to VAC and measure across the battery with the bike running. A proper meter should read 0 volts AC when probing a DC source. If you got a dud rectifier delivered with a shorted diode on one of the phase inputs you could see AC voltage at the battery because that phase is now not rectified. The madly jumping DC voltage you see on the meter could be the result of that short but because it fluctuates proportionally to the engine RPM the meter doesn't keep up and spits out a value somewhere between the regulated voltage and potentially twice that voltage every time it samples. I'll draw up a diagram later if what I just wrote isn't clear.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-28-2014, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Lyoha if you could please

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-29-2014, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EWOKie View Post
Yeah its a New R/R I bought HERE
Battery HERE

Tried the old R/R that I thought was faulty and at idle its at 13.4v and same with rev's to 5K or above just sits at 13.4v'ish.
Everything off battery reads 12.67v.

Stator has been tested and seems fine with posts of 'how to' check on here.

Where are all the ground connections on this bike,
ie. the black wire from ground from battery where is that going?
Doesn't throwing new parts at a problem that doesn't solve the issue suck? I don't mean to make light of this but I cannot stress enough how important it is to get a service manual and test out things before blindly replacing them in hopes it fixes something or you will actually be throwing money away. A $50 service manual seems like a bargain at this point i bet.

Anyway, it would appear your meter is working fine and your OLD RR and stator are working fine (though the charging voltage is a tick low, should rise to closer to 14v DC as the revs rise) so I think you are fine there using the old parts. As far as where the ground wire goes you'll have to trace it back or look in your service manual to see but it usually ties to the frame along with the connections from the motor as well. Did you hook up the wires correctly from the new RR to the bike harness? As per Lyoha's post are you seeing any AC voltage across the battery?

From reading your previous posts I don't see what the original problem was that was making you think the bike needed a new RR. Was it hard to start? Battery going flat? Give us some more info, I read certain things in a few posts but am not sure what is new and what are old symptoms dealing with this bike.

Mike
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-29-2014, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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Reason for new R/R...Battery etc... OLD POST

Bike was out on a run for a good 2-3 hours with no issues with starting etc after a few stops.
Came home parked it up, went back out in the morning and just click click...
Fuel primes etc.. but no starting
Checked voltages and a bit over the place and low..

So put it on trickle. left overninght and the following day it started no problems...
Went for a run making sure where I went it was over 4K on revs as I was told this is the point where it charges or should charge the battery
Stopped for 10 mins .. as I needed a break, fan was on when stopping about 102 °C (Cooling down)
So after small break went to start and it felt like that there was little juice in the battery but did start and rode straight home.

This is where I am just now...
Currently not near the bike but battery voltage is 13.07v when leaving it last night (new Gel battery)


Last edited by EWOKie; 08-29-2014 at 07:44 AM.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-29-2014, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Has anyone did any upgrades with other R/R's from other bikes or repositioned them to a different location?

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-29-2014, 10:09 AM
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Immediate disclaimer: I took the drawings from a google search and added stuff.

Here you go. A quick couple of sketches. A typical R/R wiring for our bikes looks like this:


The three coils "fire off" at different times and are designed to not fully be in sync with any other. To get a rectified curve, the six diodes are placed where they are to limit the direction of current passed by each coil so that you don't see odd voltages at the battery. A properly functioning R/R should look something like this:
**For simplicity I ignored the third phase**


You can see that when one phase is passing positive current, the other is pulling negative but through the negative end of the battery creating an overall voltage drop at the terminals which facilitates charge. The third is somewhere in between but again, this is an overly simplified sketch but the idea is the same.

When one of the diodes short, you get the following behavior:


For this sketch I shorted out the top right most diode. The coil associated with the green path now draws current from the path of least resistance which happens to be the other phases whose diodes are still working fine. The current in the red path is amplified by the leaking green phase. Because the voltage at the coils are much higher than those at the battery, even through the regulator, the green current tends to keep leaking towards the lower voltage at the positive terminal of the battery for that particular cycle.

And this is the part that I'm not too familiar with. Some regulators only short one phase but others short all to control the output voltage. I suspect the CBR R/R only regulates one phase and if the short happens on the other two unregulated phases, you would see over charging of the battery and a massively fluctuating voltage at the terminals. Or if indeed all three phases are regulated, the increased current through the amplified phase by the leaking phase could just be "overwhelming" the regulator.

What you would see when you measure AC voltage across the terminals of the battery would be the voltage spikes and drops from the leaking current because of a shorted diode.

Having said all of that, cruddy grounds and other connections at the wires anywhere between the alternator coils and the battery terminals could wreak all sorts of havoc also. I suggest carefully tracing the wires along with what I said earlier to find the issue. You've got some gremlins alright.

Also, I just realized I forgot to add green path to the last drawing coming from the negative terminal but that doesn't change what I've said above at all.

Last edited by Lyoha; 08-29-2014 at 10:13 AM.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-30-2014, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Did voltage drop test and test was ok
Small mark on stator coil




All 3 yellow wires on stator was 0.4 ohms
The stator coil is output 80v AC att 5k revs


Is this good or bad?

Also found this on roughly the same subject but for a Kawasaki Bike
Quote:
Ok, the headlight trip relay diode going short circuit can cause all sorts of problems for you. mainly feeding 12 volts back into the charging system so reducing the regulators out put power, which is trying to run all your electrics and charge the battery.

The regulator has 2 x 12 volt outputs, 2 White/red wires feeding the battery, and one brown Voltage Monitoring wire into the ignition on system. All 3 become connected together when the ignition is switched on. Kawasaki do it this way just to help get round the possibility of bad contacts in the ignition switch and its loom plug. Good idea I think.

It does not matter which yellow wire is used for tripping the headlights on relay, but if its diode is shorted it will become hit or miss whether it will work or not.

The Junction box is a common item between lots of kawasakis over your side of the pond, so ebay another and just just put the bigger fuses in if your bike has 2 fans.
My headlight did go out, but thought it was just age... new one is in but is ok...


Last edited by EWOKie; 08-30-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-01-2014, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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Just off the phone with a Motorcycle Repair Dude
He says more of an issue with R/R thank Stator as long as the Stator is giving out the voltage it should be ok
But saying he would rather I brought the bike into him to check rather than bring just the stator to him

So the 80v AC is this ok?

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
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No reply... awaiting parts to check them off

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 06:19 AM
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Is one of them a service manual?
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 09:07 AM
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I would have to pass on the Chinese regulator. 18 volts will blow your bulbs and more.
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 11:44 AM
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80 VAC seems high to me but I've only messed with other brand bikes' charging systems to compare to where I haven't seen much higher than 60. I'll be picking mine apart later today to do some maintenance and can do a quick check. I'm curious though, that spot on the winding, is that solidly caked on there? Is it some spatter, or an exposed wire? Same with the metallic crud you see on the heads of the windings, can you pick them off? If they come off, I'd look for where they came from before you start throwing more parts at the bike. Also, kinda hard to see from your photos but it looks like there may be some material missing from the core so can you take another of the close up of the coil winding you have pointed right at the camera in your second photo?

Last edited by Lyoha; 09-02-2014 at 11:48 AM.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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ok small update .. got another stator and tried that
voltage outputs 70'ish volts rather than 80v on my old one

Regulator I sent back wasnt chinese although there wasnt any model number on the r/r

Awaiting new regualtor should be here in 2-3 days

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 07:59 AM Thread Starter
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How did you get on checking yours Lyoha?

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 09:31 AM
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Mid 60s at 5k rpm, low 70s up to 7k rpm. Measured across each of the phases in pairs.
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyoha View Post
Mid 60s at 5k rpm, low 70s up to 7k rpm. Measured across each of the phases in pairs.
Going with that it seems the 2nd stator I got seems to be better than my own one then

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 09:54 PM
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The output voltage differences of the stators would not make a difference if your voltage regulator were working correctly.

Keep throwing parts at it, though, instead of buying service manual and testing your entire charging system and correctly identifying what's actually wrong. It's your time and money, I guess.

Mike
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-19-2014, 05:59 PM
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So what did it end up being? Today on my way home from work bike had a hard time firing up ran crappy all the way home also. Got it in the garage to troubleshoot and wouldn't restart. Battery shows 5 volts under load, quick charged it and got the bike started only reads 11.90 volts at 5000k rpm, so it looks like a R/R issue. Are Rick's brand R/R's good? My RR is an '03, so as far as OEM goes, what years or models would interchange that would be an improvement?
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