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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-06-2014, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Weird issue with Newly Purchased Bike..

Well i bought a CBR600F4i last week. Bike has been great for the times that i have ridden it. PO told me about a switch that started the bike. but its kind of crazy how it works. When you turn on the bike you have to flip the switch and then the fuel pump primes (whirring sound). then i can start the bike. The crazy part is that when i turn the key to the off position it will kill power but will not stop the engine. when i hit the switch it will kill the engine.

I am having an issues with battery drain on the bike and have purchased a new battery. I had disconnected this kill switch and want to go back to stock config but reconnecting everything did not resolve issue. i took a few pics when attempting to test and resolve.

Any assistance in this issue is greatly appreciated.. id love to get the bike running and back on the road!








Last edited by cbr600f4i06; 10-06-2014 at 11:57 PM. Reason: picture upload
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-07-2014, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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I know its the RR forum. Being that you guys are more active! and the RR is wired the same im just trying to get whatever help i can! Please!
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-07-2014, 09:38 AM
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That's one unholy mess of wiring. Grab a wiring diagram for your bike and at least use tie caps as a temporary measure to rewire everything back up properly so that you don't have whiskers of conductors poking out everywhere. Does it at least start and run with what you did? If so, battery drain is more than likely caused by the shoddy wiring job.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-07-2014, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lyoha View Post
That's one unholy mess of wiring. Grab a wiring diagram for your bike and at least use tie caps as a temporary measure to rewire everything back up properly so that you don't have whiskers of conductors poking out everywhere. Does it at least start and run with what you did? If so, battery drain is more than likely caused by the shoddy wiring job.
Thanks Lyoha,

Honestly that was my unholy mess.. lol i had things clean and then the bike didnt start. It will attempt but when turned to the on position there was no prime sound. The only time it primed is when it was in this configuration. So i hooked things back the way i found them for pic purposes.




looking at the diagram I originally reconnected the wires that were fut (Red / White (larger on the engine stop relay - there are two of the same color) and Black and white on the same relay. When i turned it to the on position nothing happened. Now there was a jumper on the fuel cut relay as seen in the pic too. I thought that it was as easy as resoldering to original locations and then pulling out the crap they had in there. Scary when you turn the key to the off position and the bike is still running. Until you flicked the switch and it died. I dont need that... rather have it like it came turn key and it shuts off.

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-07-2014, 12:12 PM
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I think I found the same colored schematic you're using. Looking at it, and your pics, both the fuel cut and engine stop relays are bypassed. The fuel cut relay (which controls your pump) gets its signal from the ECU and you said the bike runs when it's wired the "custom" way so we can rule out the ECU, for now. The engine stop relay however, gets its signal from two sources and also provides ground for the fuel cut relay so the fuel cut relay won't do what it's supposed to if the engine stop relay isn't doing its job. The engine stop relay will only do it's job when the BAS, connected to one of the red/white wires, is sending it the right signal (not sideways), and the kill switch, connected to the solid black wire, is in RUN. So right off the bat I can think of three things that could be going wrong with your bike that makes it not run when it's wired to factory spec: Bad kill switch, bad BAS, or the engine stop relay itself is boned.

Now, it looks like wiring isn't at all intimidating to you so as a first step I suggest ruling out the easiest thing after you've wired everything to factory spec - the kill switch. If you short the black and the black/white wires coming out of the kill switch that'll do the same thing as having that switch in RUN. Next, if that doesn't solve the issue, try bypassing the BAS. I'm not exactly familiar with the guts of the BAS so I can't tell you whether to short or open wires out of there, or which for that matter. After that, check whether the engine stop relay is actually working as it should - take it off the bike and apply 12v to the input terminals and you should hear a click. Or you can use a multimeter in the continuity mode to probe the outputs of the relay to see if they close and open when power is supplied or lost. I'm willing to bet it's something of the three.

Last edited by Lyoha; 10-07-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2014, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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I think I found the same colored schematic you're using. Looking at it, and your pics, both the fuel cut and engine stop relays are bypassed. The fuel cut relay (which controls your pump) gets its signal from the ECU and you said the bike runs when it's wired the "custom" way so we can rule out the ECU, for now. The engine stop relay however, gets its signal from two sources and also provides ground for the fuel cut relay so the fuel cut relay won't do what it's supposed to if the engine stop relay isn't doing its job. The engine stop relay will only do it's job when the BAS, connected to one of the red/white wires, is sending it the right signal (not sideways), and the kill switch, connected to the solid black wire, is in RUN. So right off the bat I can think of three things that could be going wrong with your bike that makes it not run when it's wired to factory spec: Bad kill switch, bad BAS, or the engine stop relay itself is boned.

Now, it looks like wiring isn't at all intimidating to you so as a first step I suggest ruling out the easiest thing after you've wired everything to factory spec - the kill switch. If you short the black and the black/white wires coming out of the kill switch that'll do the same thing as having that switch in RUN. Next, if that doesn't solve the issue, try bypassing the BAS. I'm not exactly familiar with the guts of the BAS so I can't tell you whether to short or open wires out of there, or which for that matter. After that, check whether the engine stop relay is actually working as it should - take it off the bike and apply 12v to the input terminals and you should hear a click. Or you can use a multimeter in the continuity mode to probe the outputs of the relay to see if they close and open when power is supplied or lost. I'm willing to bet it's something of the three.

Lyoha,

Alright. After a trip to the store for a tender and some chain lube. I reconnected the relays to factory spec. I found the clip for the BAS (could reach it through the top under the ignition ) disconnected it and jumped it at the plug (harness side not BAS side) turn key, all looked normal , bike sounded normal but still no prime.

Went over to kill switch and when flicked to kill no sounds from engine. went to run and FI light comes on briefly then goes off then hit the starter. Tries but still no prime so not starting. Battery wasnt fully charged at red white wire was getting 11.72 with ignition in the on position. that was at the relay. the rest werent giving high readings at all . checked the fuel pump with the switch in run was getting the same reading at the brown wire. I should have recorded them all but when i killed it at the red switch i got nothing.

I meant to ask yesterday but the wires for the kill switch are by the upper cowl?

Also I wanted to ask too. I was looking at you tube and i saw some other f4is and i couldnt see wires when looking at the forks when looking past the speedo. is this normal? The reason i ask is because i see wires.. going around the outside of the forks. and there is a big bunch in the middle. if you need i can run home and take a pic on lunch.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2014, 01:13 PM
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So, if I read your post correctly, you bypassed the BAS, turned the kill switch to RUN, and got the engine to turn over but not fire.

When you measured 11.72 volts, I take it that was the engine stop relay? Which wires did you take the readings from? The solid black wire at the engine stop relay is the one that gets its feed from the kill switch. Make sure you measure between that and the two red/white ones separately. One red/white is fed from your battery and the other from the BAS. If you get voltage on both that means the engine stop relay has all the power to do it's job. When you measure these, make sure the relay is disconnected and you're measuring from the harness side connector. Have you tried powering the relay directly by a 12v source?

What makes me wonder is that you said you got voltage at the fuel pump. To be sure, disconnect the fuel pump, and measure voltage between the green and the brown wires at the harness side connector. If you're still getting voltage there, the pump should prime and means that all of the components that work to run the pump are fine. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss from your description as far as what you did so far...

I don't know how the wires are routed through an F4i so can't help you much there. But the wires to the kill switch should be fed directly into the kill switch housing so look in there if you try to bypass it temporarily. Honestly, by the sounds of things the previous owner did some seriously questionable rewiring of the bike for whatever reasons. I hope you got it for cheap...
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2014, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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So, if I read your post correctly, you bypassed the BAS, turned the kill switch to RUN, and got the engine to turn over but not fire.

When you measured 11.72 volts, I take it that was the engine stop relay? Which wires did you take the readings from? The solid black wire at the engine stop relay is the one that gets its feed from the kill switch. Make sure you measure between that and the two red/white ones separately. One red/white is fed from your battery and the other from the BAS. If you get voltage on both that means the engine stop relay has all the power to do it's job. When you measure these, make sure the relay is disconnected and you're measuring from the harness side connector. Have you tried powering the relay directly by a 12v source?

What makes me wonder is that you said you got voltage at the fuel pump. To be sure, disconnect the fuel pump, and measure voltage between the green and the brown wires at the harness side connector. If you're still getting voltage there, the pump should prime and means that all of the components that work to run the pump are fine. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss from your description as far as what you did so far...

I don't know how the wires are routed through an F4i so can't help you much there. But the wires to the kill switch should be fed directly into the kill switch housing so look in there if you try to bypass it temporarily. Honestly, by the sounds of things the previous owner did some seriously questionable rewiring of the bike for whatever reasons. I hope you got it for cheap...

Alright, Im sorry if i sounded crazy, i know how to use the tools just dont know how to convey it at times. in this instance i dont know what i should be checking.

***UPDATE***

I re did the wiring harness that was wrapped around the fork as fortunately someone at my job has an f4i and i was able to see how things were routed.

Now i can say that i am now able to start the bike but had to jump the brown and black/white wires as they go into the fuel cutoff relay. I let it run for a bit and then used the kill switch to kill the engine. I then went and started the bike and then used the key to kill the engine. The only issue now is the fact that i had to jump those wires to be able to get the pump to prime.

Is this a relay issue or am i still back where i started?

I have not tried to power the relay from a 12v source as im not sure how exactly to do that .

I got the voltage reading from the harness at the relay with it connected. i am going to disconnect them and see what readings i get.

sorry about the confusion.

Last edited by cbr600f4i06; 10-08-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2014, 08:28 PM
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Sounds like you bypassed the relay which to me means the relay is no good
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-08-2014, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like you bypassed the relay which to me means the relay is no good
Thats what i was thinking. But i switched the engine stop relay with the fuel cutoff relay and the relay is working as i can kill the engine no problem. this also stops the pump from priming (kill switch on engine). Im puzzled. smh
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2014, 10:08 AM
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12v relays are pretty cheap at the auto parts stores so if you want, you can buy two and replace both the engine stop relay and the fuel cutoff relay. At least that way you know for a fact that those relays are good and if the issue persists you can start to look at the kill switch or the BAS.

By the sounds, if jumping only the fuel cutoff relay does the trick, that relay is probably goosed like blkcavy98 said.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2014, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like you bypassed the relay which to me means the relay is no good
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12v relays are pretty cheap at the auto parts stores so if you want, you can buy two and replace both the engine stop relay and the fuel cutoff relay. At least that way you know for a fact that those relays are good and if the issue persists you can start to look at the kill switch or the BAS.

By the sounds, if jumping only the fuel cutoff relay does the trick, that relay is probably goosed like blkcavy98 said.

I will check into the relays as they may be the culprit. I had switched them and got the same result. with both, When i hold them the engine cutoff jumps (can feel the relay activate) the fuel cutoff does not.

any ideas?
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2014, 03:29 PM
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Fuel cut off relay is screwed. Replace it. Like Lyoha said. They are cheap so replace both that way there if it still doesn't work than relays would be ruled out
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2014, 04:34 PM
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It's amazing how many people on here hand out advice on relays without actually know what they do or how they work. Automotive relays are pretty damn robust and rarely fail, by swapping them or replacing them probably 80% you are simply re-establishing a funky connection, not fixing the issue by the replacement. Motorcycle ones are even more heavy duty.

If you bypass the relay and the bike suddenly works, you need to discover WHY it doesn't work. Usually it's because the "trigger" for the relay isn't functioning and my guess from the original description by the OP that was the switch the PO put in, to either make or break the fuel pump trigger and whatever they did is cutting that connection.

OP, GET A SERVICE MANUAL, then follow the schematic for that fuel pump relay to be sure it's connected correctly. This guessing and having people who have ZERO idea what you are looking at telling you what to fix is crazy and you'll never fix a cobbled wiring mess without someone else seeing what you are.

Quick info: a relay will have (generally) two main connection points; the trigger voltage that makes it fire, and the actual load. Relays are designed to function in two different ways: normally open and normally closed. Normally closed (NC) means when there is no trigger voltage the two pins are connected (closed) and when the trigger happens the connection is broken; normally open (NO) relays work the opposite. A lot of relays have BOTH function pins on the them so when the relay "fires" two different functions happen. The relay body should be fairly well marked what is what so TEST before replacing with a $10 multimeter and a couple alligator clips to your battery.

Trust me, THIS will be the best way to solve this. Electrical systems are VERY simple when you break them down, yet people keep treating them like black magic and voodoo. Think of electricity as water flowing, where and how it goes has to be controlled or you'll get flooding. Resisters slow the flow like a smaller opening, capacitors store the flow like a pond, replays direct it to or from a component, transistors use water going the opposite way to control a large amount of water flow. Just saying it's not that hard to figure this stuff out when you simplifying.

Mike
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2014, 05:33 PM
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It's amazing how many people on here hand out advice on relays without actually know what they do or how they work. Automotive relays are pretty damn robust and rarely fail, by swapping them or replacing them probably 80% you are simply re-establishing a funky connection, not fixing the issue by the replacement. Motorcycle ones are even more heavy duty.

If you bypass the relay and the bike suddenly works, you need to discover WHY it doesn't work. Usually it's because the "trigger" for the relay isn't functioning and my guess from the original description by the OP that was the switch the PO put in, to either make or break the fuel pump trigger and whatever they did is cutting that connection.

OP, GET A SERVICE MANUAL, then follow the schematic for that fuel pump relay to be sure it's connected correctly. This guessing and having people who have ZERO idea what you are looking at telling you what to fix is crazy and you'll never fix a cobbled wiring mess without someone else seeing what you are.

Quick info: a relay will have (generally) two main connection points; the trigger voltage that makes it fire, and the actual load. Relays are designed to function in two different ways: normally open and normally closed. Normally closed (NC) means when there is no trigger voltage the two pins are connected (closed) and when the trigger happens the connection is broken; normally open (NO) relays work the opposite. A lot of relays have BOTH function pins on the them so when the relay "fires" two different functions happen. The relay body should be fairly well marked what is what so TEST before replacing with a $10 multimeter and a couple alligator clips to your battery.

Trust me, THIS will be the best way to solve this. Electrical systems are VERY simple when you break them down, yet people keep treating them like black magic and voodoo. Think of electricity as water flowing, where and how it goes has to be controlled or you'll get flooding. Resisters slow the flow like a smaller opening, capacitors store the flow like a pond, replays direct it to or from a component, transistors use water going the opposite way to control a large amount of water flow. Just saying it's not that hard to figure this stuff out when you simplifying.

Mike
Boning a relay by overloading its control circuit ain't all that hard. Just saying. These cut relays are normally open ones - so when you apply voltage to them, they close. In cases like a lost signal from something like a kill switch or the BAS, the relay stays open. If you fry the control side of a normally open relay, it will stay open no matter the input.

While you're right that we can't help as much as actually looking at the bike and fiddling with own hands, advice given here or anywhere on the internet is not meant to be followed as a gospel. What we try to do is attempt at an explanation and even if not spot on, if that serves to narrow down an issue or rule it out, I say job well done. Service manuals help too.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 07:21 AM
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Boning a relay by overloading its control circuit ain't all that hard. Just saying.
Ok, I'll bite: tell me how in an F4i electrical system that runs at only at 12V you overloaded the control circuit of the fuel pump relay? I can take one out and run it directly to a battery and the electrical field created in the transformer will self regulate by design and it will work just fine. Now on a more modern bike or say car system, where you now have 5V running a CANBUS type system sure, but in this bike, not likely.

Just saying.

You may think what you are handing out is advice and not taken as gospel but for most of the questions asked on here they are done by newbies and non technical people so it actually is taken that way. Couple months back a guy came in here shooting his mouth off saying EVERY hot start issue was the RR and couldn't be anything else (wrong) so someone went out and bought one after reading this and guess what? Wasn't the issue so he wasted money on one where if he had bought a $50 service manual, a $10 multimeter and followed the tests in the book he'd have known the actual issue fixed it right the first time.

Fixing symptoms doesn't teach you anything, just how to throw away money. If OP would know that the relay isn't firing because there is no control voltage he can quickly continue on troubleshooting instead of spending money on unnecessary parts that may not solve his issue and waiting for them to arrive. Or worse, temporarily solve it and have it appear again; a meter and service manual will tell you everything you need to know in this case instead of hoping someone with zero idea of what's actually happening can help.

Mike

Last edited by Miweber929; 10-10-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 11:06 AM
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I say it's not that hard because the two relays were obviously jumped before and some odd switch wired in. It's not the voltage that kills a component, it's the current. So even at 12 volts, you can have a current spike (as caused by a short somewhere else) that fries the control circuit.

Btw, this is exactly why I ask a whole swath of questions and want a detailed answer to avoid as much guessing. Following a wiring diagram to diagnose isn't very hard but does require some attention span and patience.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 01:08 PM
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I can almost promise you it's the ecu. Have seen this on another bike.

The ecu switches the ground for the fuel pump relay. If the switch in the ecu is cooked you won't get a prime. The re wire was probably trying to solve that problem.


Try connecting the negative for that relay to ground instead of the ecu. See what happens
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