2005 600rr - crank but no spark - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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2005 600rr - crank but no spark

Hello everyone,

I recently purchased a CBR and am trying to get it back on the road. The bike cranks strong but doesnt kick on.

- Fuel pump primes
- Tip sensor bypassed
- Tried in neutral with kick stand up and clutch pulled in
- Checked yellow ground box for damage/corrosion. Flipped bridge and reconnected connector. My wires to it were black though?
- Changed out all the fuses
- Harness looks in good shape
- Smells like gas when I crank it

I'd love help on what to do next. Thank you
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post #2 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 02:01 PM
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I wish I was more mechanically inclined to help(learning), But best wishes to you on your adventure!

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post #3 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 02:55 PM
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Can you bump start it (Probably not)?

Try this next, hold your throttle wide open, and press/hold your ignition for 5 seconds. Wait 10 seconds, and repeat a few more times. Still not starting, check that your spark plugs are getting spark. There is a little device you can purchase from a auto parts store that will help you test spark - or do it the old fashioned way.

https://www.600rr.net/vb/62-troublesh...ont-start.html

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-09-2017 at 03:01 PM.
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post #4 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Ran out of time today.

Bump start didnt work.

WOT start didn't work.

Ran sensor test, nothing changed.

Tested for spark previously but was with an old spark plug. Had no spark on any of the coils. I'm going to do it again tomorrow with a fresh plug.

Will run a compression test tomorrow as well.

Anyone know how to test the ECM to see if it's sending proper voltage to the coils? I'd like to rule it out.
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post #5 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 08:19 PM
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the ecm switches the grounds. so it doesn't send voltage anywhere.


there is a black/white wire which is powered when the engine stop relay is energized by the kill switch or BAS (the kill switch switches the positive for the coil, the bank angle sensor switches the negative)


when you cycle the kill switch, if the engine stop relay clicks, then you have 12v to your ignition coils, among other devices, as well as 12v on pin 16 in your ecu (you should consider checking for 12v on this pin, connector b (light grey) pin 16, it'll be the only black/white wire in that connector)

the plugs won't fire if you don't have 12v on that pin.
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post #6 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wibbly View Post
the ecm switches the grounds. so it doesn't send voltage anywhere.


there is a black/white wire which is powered when the engine stop relay is energized by the kill switch or BAS (the kill switch switches the positive for the coil, the bank angle sensor switches the negative)


when you cycle the kill switch, if the engine stop relay clicks, then you have 12v to your ignition coils, among other devices, as well as 12v on pin 16 in your ecu (you should consider checking for 12v on this pin, connector b (light grey) pin 16, it'll be the only black/white wire in that connector)

the plugs won't fire if you don't have 12v on that pin.
His fuel pump primes, so his fuel cut relay appears to be working, along with fuel pump relay. I suspect you have a brake in the splice from your bike side harness for engine stop switch to your ignition coils - assuming the wiring is the same as a 2007/2008 ????

Just a guess, don't hate, feel free to correct or admonish ;)

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-09-2017 at 10:29 PM.
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post #7 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-09-2017, 10:56 PM
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The wiring is very similar

Have a look at a diagram
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post #8 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-10-2017, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Update #2

Original dignosis was by previous owner.

I bought a basic spark plug and tested each plug and cool for spark. They all delivered spark when grounded to the engine.

Changed battery out with a known good fully charged spare. Cranks harder, still won't start. Original battery died after too many good cranks. 15-18.

Fuel pump turns off with kill switch, turns back on with kill switch set to run.

16th pin connector on grey plug to ecu gains 12V with iginition on. Drops to 9V when cranking.

Left head light was working. Now no longer is. High beam still works on right side. Bike has a butched H.I.D. light system. Ive been pushing it in and out of the garage and may have pulled a wire. Who knows. Just noting it.

Exhaust smells of gas lightly when cranking.

Plan to order a new set of plugs this week as bike was last legally registered June 2016. Tank has almost no fuel. Gonna fill it up soon.

To sum up. Bike is cranking hard with spark but no running noises.

Will borrow a compression tester later this week.

Last edited by Droldaerd; 10-10-2017 at 07:37 PM.
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post #9 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-10-2017, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droldaerd View Post
Update #2

Original dignosis was by previous owner.

I bought a basic spark plug and tested each plug and cool for spark. They all delivered spark when grounded to the engine.

Changed battery out with a known good fully charged spare. Cranks harder, still won't start. Original battery died after too many good cranks. 15-18.

Fuel pump turns off with kill switch, turns back on with kill switch set to run.

16th pin connector on grey plug to ecu gains 12V with iginition on. Drops to 9V when cranking.

Left head light was working. Now no longer is. High beam still works on right side. Bike has a butched H.I.D. light system. Ive been pushing it in and out of the garage and may have pulled a wire. Who knows. Just noting it.

Exhaust smells of gas lightly when cranking.

Plan to order a new set of plugs this week as bike was last legally registered June 2016. Tank has almost no fuel. Gonna fill it up soon.

To sum up. Bike is cranking hard with spark but no running noises.

Will borrow a compression tester later this week.
Did you pull your spark plugs? Maybe they are fouled? Might want to check to make sure your fuel pump is actually pushing out gas at the proper pressure. Not sure about your model year, nor if this is the proper way to do it, but you could pull the line from the fuel pump that connects to the thingamajig (injectors??) (not at the fuel pump, but the other end - see if gas comes out.

If I read your post a little differently, it seems you say each spark plug that is currently in the bike does spark when grounded to the engine, so maybe it's still an electrical issue, in that the coils are not getting grounded by the ECM??? Both Bank Angle Sensor, and Engine Stop Switch will prevent spark - at least on an '09. So again I go back to if your engine stop switch has a splice that goes to the coils, check that splice - I don't have a wiring diagram for your model year, you need to get one.

BTW, I've not mentioned the zener diode because I believe if that was bad, your fuel pump wouldn't prime, and you wouldn't get spark.

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-10-2017 at 09:00 PM.
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post #10 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-10-2017, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Nut View Post

Did you pull your spark plugs? Maybe they are fouled? Might want to check to make sure your fuel pump is actually pushing out gas at the proper pressure. Not sure about your model year, nor if this is the proper way to do it, but you could pull the line from the fuel pump that connects to the thingamajig (injectors??) (not at the fuel pump, but the other end - see if gas comes out.

If I read your post a little differently, it seems you say each spark plug that is currently in the bike does spark when grounded to the engine, so maybe it's still an electrical issue, in that the coils are not getting grounded by the ECM??? Both Bank Angle Sensor, and Engine Stop Switch will prevent spark - at least on an '09. So again I go back to if your engine stop switch has a splice that goes to the coils, check that splice - I don't have a wiring diagram for your model year, you need to get one.

BTW, I've not mentioned the zener diode because I believe if that was bad, your fuel pump wouldn't prime, and you wouldn't get spark.
Yes. Every separate coil produced a spark as well as every separate coil pack connector.

How would I check if the ECM is grounding them?

No splice wire from kill switch. Just the direct connector to the harness. Unplugged it and plugged it in for good measure.

Turning off the kill switch and turning it back on recycles the start up. Fuel pump kicks on, Fi light comes briefly then turns off, oil light toggles till starter button is pressed.

Will check plugs next week. Going to change them for good measure while I run a compression test.

Afraid I'm running short on ideas after this. Want to buy a used ec m and harness and just swap but don't want to throw money out in the dark.
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post #11 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droldaerd View Post
Yes. Every separate coil produced a spark as well as every separate coil pack connector.

How would I check if the ECM is grounding them?

No splice wire from kill switch. Just the direct connector to the harness. Unplugged it and plugged it in for good measure.

Turning off the kill switch and turning it back on recycles the start up. Fuel pump kicks on, Fi light comes briefly then turns off, oil light toggles till starter button is pressed.

Will check plugs next week. Going to change them for good measure while I run a compression test.

Afraid I'm running short on ideas after this. Want to buy a used ec m and harness and just swap but don't want to throw money out in the dark.
Well if your original plugs aren't fouled, and you are getting spark with the original plugs, then no gas is making its way in. Can you confirm that your fuel pump is actually pushing gas through the line. If it is, sounds like your injectors are clogged.
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post #12 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Axel Nut View Post

Well if your original plugs aren't fouled, and you are getting spark with the original plugs, then no gas is making its way in. Can you confirm that your fuel pump is actually pushing gas through the line. If it is, sounds like your injectors are clogged.
I tested the spark with a basic but new plug. Haven't pulled the plugs out. I don't have a proper extension to seat the socket to pull them out. In going to go buy it tomorrow morning. Ill pull the hose off the fuel rails tomorrow too and see if its pushing fuel, but if the exhaust pipe smells like gas, doesnt it mean its getting fuel?
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post #13 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 12:39 AM
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It's probably fouled plugs

Halt your investigation until you pull them
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post #14 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
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Fine ill just go plasta-dip my helmet to match my future repsol fairings...
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post #15 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Update #3

Pulled plugs and am about to clean them. Smoke break first.

2004 Cbr600rr plugs - https://imgur.com/gallery/rlOZZ
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post #16 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Update #3.1

Plugs cleaned. Going to compressed air them, re-gap, and test for spark.

2004 cbr600rr post cleaning - https://imgur.com/gallery/t80X5
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post #17 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Update #4

Plugs all sparked.

Tried push starting for .2 miles. Would hear a flutter then tire skids out.

Disconnected gas tank line from top fuel rail. Took a bath in 91 octane. Theres 2 other hoses connected to the gas tank not connected to anything. They just a vent and overflow hose?
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post #18 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:06 PM
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Update #4

Plugs all sparked.

Tried push starting for .2 miles. Would hear a flutter then tire skids out.

Disconnected gas tank line from top fuel rail. Took a bath in 91 octane. Theres 2 other hoses connected to the gas tank not connected to anything. They just a vent and overflow hose?
the "Flutter then tire skids out" is the same result as me when my fuel pump wouldn't prime, and I would not get spark. In your case, you are getting spark, but no fuel.

When you pulled your plugs, were they wet? If not, I bet your injectors are clogged. Maybe try intentionally fouling your plugs, then pull one or two and see if they are wet.

Also, you sure you have good fresh gas???

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-11-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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post #19 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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the "Flutter then tire skids out" is the same result as me when my fuel pump wouldn't prime, and I would not get spark. In your case, you are getting spark, but no fuel.

When you pulled your plugs, were they wet? If not, I bet your injectors are clogged. Maybe try intentionally fouling your plugs, then pull one or two and see if they are wet.
I barely smell gas in the exhaust now. So it's possible. I tried to crank my engine a few times before pulling them and at least 2 had residue but I chalked it to oil seepage.

Do I need to pull and clean both sets or can I start with the top first and see if it gets it to start at least?
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post #20 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Also, you sure you have good fresh gas???
Ya tank was near empty before. About 2 gallons of fresh 91 minus the half gallon I just gurgled with.
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post #21 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:26 PM
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I barely smell gas in the exhaust now. So it's possible. I tried to crank my engine a few times before pulling them and at least 2 had residue but I chalked it to oil seepage.

Do I need to pull and clean both sets or can I start with the top first and see if it gets it to start at least?
Does it sound like it is even trying to start, i.e. does it sound like you are getting any combustion at all? Mine sounded like it was just the starter cranking, no resistance at all, very strong.

I've never messed with injectors, so I don't know what to tell you there. I know you can get injector cleaner to put in your gas, but that can make the problem worse from what I understand. Supposedly the only proper way to clean them is to send them off for an ultrasonic cleaning - else buy new injectors. Also, still might be electrical on the injectors - think - not sure how to test the circuit for those.

Wibbly most likely has a better answer for you at this point. I'd wait for him.
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post #22 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Does it sound like it is even trying to start, i.e. does it sound like you are getting any combustion at all? Mine sounded like it was just the starter cranking, no resistance at all, very strong.

I've never messed with injectors, so I don't know what to tell you there. I know you can get injector cleaner to put in your gas, but that can make the problem worse from what I understand. Supposedly the only proper way to clean them is to send them off for an ultrasonic cleaning - else buy new injectors. Also, still might be electrical on the injectors - think - not sure how to test the circuit for those.

Wibbly most likely has a better answer for you at this point. I'd wait for him.
Definetly louder than when I had the plugs all out, but still mostly the sound of the starter. Not much back pressure from the exhaust, the combustion sound if at all is barely a tummy rumble. It gets slightly deeper if I WOT start.
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post #23 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 05:47 PM
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Definetly louder than when I had the plugs all out, but still mostly the sound of the starter. Not much back pressure from the exhaust, the combustion sound if at all is barely a tummy rumble. It gets slightly deeper if I WOT start.
I believe WOT start will shut off the injectors. That technique is to try and burn up any excess gas. If inspecting your injectors is easy enough to do without risk of causing damage I say go for it. Myself I've never done it, and knowing my track record, I would somehow end up either swallowing one, or get it jammed in my ear...

Otherwise, PM wibbly, or wait and hopefully he or someone else with more experience can chime in.
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post #24 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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I believe WOT start will shut off the injectors. That technique is to try and burn up any excess gas. If inspecting your injectors is easy enough to do without risk of causing damage I say go for it. Myself I've never done it, and knowing my track record, I would somehow end up either swallowing one, or get it jammed in my ear...

Otherwise, PM wibbly, or wait and hopefully he or someone else with more experience can chime in.
Yup. You were exactly right on cleaning them. Ultrasonic only, specialist prefered so they can test after, and that jimmy-wrench-short-cut fluids are garbage.

Will run an eletrical test on them in the mean time.
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post #25 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Battery voltage at each injector connector.

~12.8 ohms resistance at every injector
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post #26 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 09:49 PM
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Battery voltage at each injector connector.

~12.8 ohms resistance at every injector
I don't know if you can pull the fuel rail or not, but I watched a video of a guy who placed paper towels under the injectors, and simply applied 9v from a 9v battery to each one to test - how he pressurized it I don't know.

Oh, and if you do happen to do this BE CAREFUL! Sparks and gasoline well, it's what makes your bike go 160mph! It should be obvious that you would be working in a dangerous situation.

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-11-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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post #27 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-11-2017, 10:35 PM
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Your injectors aren't broken. Wtf is with this thread



Is there a power commander on the bike?
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post #28 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-12-2017, 01:07 AM Thread Starter
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Your injectors aren't broken. Wtf is with this thread

Is there a power commander on the bike?
No power commander that I can see. Have the whole body stripped down. Two brothers exhaust system. Stock otherwise.

Should I remove and clean the fuel rails?
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post #29 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-12-2017, 01:20 AM
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your injectors aren't clogged to the point of non-starting.


i've never heard of this even happening. it's an easy thing to suggest, but how practical do you really think this can be. your bike was running, now it's not, somehow all your injectors are clogged to the point of not fueling. despite the fact that your fuel filter is still in place.

no way.


people love to say that this is the cause of a non start, but i've never seen it.
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post #30 of 75 (permalink) Old 10-12-2017, 01:47 AM Thread Starter
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your injectors aren't clogged to the point of non-starting.


i've never heard of this even happening. it's an easy thing to suggest, but how practical do you really think this can be. your bike was running, now it's not, somehow all your injectors are clogged to the point of not fueling. despite the fact that your fuel filter is still in place.

no way.


people love to say that this is the cause of a non start, but i've never seen it.
Ya I just dont know where to go now. I don't even know what other test I can run.
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