Upper Fuel Rail wont Spray - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Upper Fuel Rail wont Spray

Hey all,

So I own a 08 CBR600RR with about 87k miles on her. Long story short the upper fuel rail is not firing. I figured this out by opening the air intake and holding my hand under the injectors and looking inside the airbox for fuel when revving the engine. The engine RPM jumps around at 3k-5k, around 10k, and wont redline (being that it isn't getting the fuel it needs) alongside when I engine brake I can see that it flutters when dropping through the 3k-5k area. I'm sure these RPM issues are due to not having the proper fuel.

My troubleshooting so far is:
-Checked Battery (Pretty much new from shelf)
-Replaced Fuel Pump (due to mileage it didn't bother me)
-Attempted different ECU (No change)
-Pulled off fuel rail and checked for clogs (None)
-Pulled line and checked for fuel push from pump by holding a bottle to the line, the line sprays a fountain of fuel (forgot to put it back on and turned key...almost got a face full)
-Jumped BAS
-Replaced Spark Plugs (didn't need it but decided since I was there mind as well)

It seems that the fuel rail is not getting the Electrical Signal to fire/spray. Judging from the wire schematics its a direct signal from the ECU. A mechanic is saying I should replace the TPS but I don't know how this is connected since it's a straight shot from ECU signal...Also from what I've read on the forum people have suggested the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier but as stated im not sure how it's connected to the system.

Does the TPS/Voltage Reg/Rec give the signal to the ECU to fire the upper rail?

Thanks for your time and the read. I'll be checking periodically for posts and help. At this point I'm not sure what else to try besides the already above stuff.
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post #2 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 03:04 PM
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Here's some thoughts - may or may not be correct.

Looking at the diagram, have you considered testing continuity on the BL/W pin from the engine stop relay to each BL/W pin on the fuel injectors? If you get continuity, maybe check for 12v on each BL/W pin on the fuel injectors. If you notice, there is a splice from the BL/W wire from the engine stop relay to the fuel injectors.
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post #3 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Nut View Post
Here's some thoughts - may or may not be correct.

Looking at the diagram, have you considered testing continuity on the BL/W pin from the engine stop relay to each BL/W pin on the fuel injectors? If you get continuity, maybe check for 12v on each BL/W pin on the fuel injectors. If you notice, there is a splice from the BL/W wire from the engine stop relay to the fuel injectors.
You do have a point, the only signal that would stop all injectors is that engine stop relay, I don't know why I didn't look at that before. I'll swing by Autozone, get a quick multi and check those wires. I guess I have been looking at it too long and needed fresh eyes.
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post #4 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bmac7599 View Post
You do have a point, the only signal that would stop all injectors is that engine stop relay, I don't know why I didn't look at that before. I'll swing by Autozone, get a quick multi and check those wires. I guess I have been looking at it too long and needed fresh eyes.
I don't know man, but if the wire was broken at the first splice, none of your injectors would fire, but maybe the splices to the injectors for your upper rail are broken, or corroded plugs, whatever... Easy enough to check until wibbly stops by and tells you exactly what is wrong
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post #5 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 03:41 PM
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Do you know when these injectors are supposed to be firing? Under what engine conditions are the secondaries expected to operate?

I suspect you are chasing a problem that doesn't actually exist.
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post #6 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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***UPDATE***

I checked the wires from the Injectors to the Engine Stop Relay. The wires checked good with <0.1 ohms. I even went further back and checked the wires from the engine stop to the battery and BAS. Everything seemed to give me the same result. I did blow the FI fuse somehow which seemed strange but I have plenty of spares.

From what I read and videos I've seen, it seems like the Secondary injectors fire at 4.4k/10% Throttle rotation and or above 7.5k RPM. I could be wrong but these were the numbers I came to when searching endless amounts of forums. They just don't fire at all.

I would say take it around the block and or see for yourself. If I had a GoPro I would video the bike during a standard ride but when the bike doesn't want to get up and go on the freeway (it was not moving past 5k RPM and seemed to be clogged until I went WOT till it cleared up) and or dumping RPM's in a tight right hand turn I'm to the point where I don't want to ride until I get it fixed.

Last edited by bmac7599; 10-19-2017 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Additional Comments
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post #7 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 04:56 PM
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You absolutely positive you have good gas in the bike? Do you have a power commander installed? When did the issue first occur? What maintenance did you do prior to the issue occurring?
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post #8 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 05:04 PM
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just checked the manual, seems different years have different operating methods. 4400 and 10 degrees should be pretty simple to simulate on the stand. (have you tried in gear? could be a neutral thing)


have you checked the condition of the pins within the secondary rail connectors?

Last edited by wibbly; 10-19-2017 at 05:11 PM.
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post #9 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Nut View Post
You absolutely positive you have good gas in the bike? Do you have a power commander installed? When did the issue first occur? What maintenance did you do prior to the issue occurring?
I've pushed sea foam through the tank and positive I have good gas, even have it at 93 octane due to Florida area. I do not have a PC installed. The issue start mainly these past 6 months. It was intermittent the first few so I thought it was just a fluke or water in the tank. I ran a Fuel Injector Cleaner through it and it seemed to help buff it out before but now it's always there. I can ride the bike slowly and it wont stutter but when I go to punch it the RPM's fluctuate and the bike bucks.

As far as maintenance I've done the usual Spark Plugs, Oil changes, Chain and Sprocket, Coolant, Air Filter (Also I did clean this while trying to figure out the current problem), Clutch (didn't need it really). I think thats all.

The only mod I installed was a Speedo Healer to fix the speedo due to doing the 1 down 2 up conversion on the sprockets but I don't think that would have an issue on this.

I could just run tank after tank of Seafoam in it and do it that way...not sure if it would hurt the bike at all
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post #10 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-21-2017, 10:24 AM
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Well there seems to be one more thing you might want to check, fuel pump pressure. Volume and pressure and not the same. Once you reconnect the fuel line your volume can drop if you don't have enough pump pressure to overcome system pressure. If your pressure regulator is bad it'll dump fuel back into the tank and never give your fuel rail enough pressure or volume to function at design.

But I'm still of the opinion that they're actually working. You just may not be able to replicate running conditions in order to actually see them work on the bench.

So when you go back to the original symptoms, it sounds like a fuel pressure problem starving the bike at higher rpm.

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post #11 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-21-2017, 12:17 PM
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I am thinking fuel pump too. My fuel pump on my 08 went out at about 40k miles.

First time rider over 40. Finally made it!
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post #12 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-21-2017, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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I just replaced the pump but i know it's possible to get a bad fuel pump from the factory but usually that's pretty rare.

I did read that someone took out the pressure regulator on there bike and it was the problem but I don't recall seeing one on the fuel pump setup. Did I miss something? I know this is an essential part but if I remove it and run the bike and it fixes my problem then I know what to order.

Is there a way I can test the pressure without purchasing the pressure gauge? As in will a vehicle fuel pressure gauge work?

UPDATE

I checked all the wires going to the TPS and everything checked good. Even checked the ohms of the TPS like the service manual said and it was good, got a small amount (0.1) which the pub said if it shows something you're good.

Last edited by bmac7599; 10-21-2017 at 02:40 PM.
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post #13 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-21-2017, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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Rigged up an auto fuel pressure test set and it checked at 50psi, just like the service manual says. I had to remove the factory plug and shoot straight from the hose but if it works it works. So I can rule out the fuel pump and psi...anyone have any other ideas?

I shot the battery during this test and it was at 14 volts so I believe the voltage regulator is working just fine.

It does idle low, maybe at 1200 or so but doesn't bog. I thought it might be a charging issue due to seeing the headlights (I converted them to hid) flicker a bit and stop flickering when I rolled the throttle.
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post #14 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE
So I got bored and decided to try something on the bike. I shoved some safety wire into the injector connector to see if I got power while it was running. It got 13 volts which seems good to me. So I have good pressure and power...im guessing bad injectors. I was able to order some off eBay because the injector store near me wanted 30 bucks a pop for cleaning...i got a whole rail for 25 used...they maybe be used but I'm sure they are not as used as these with 87k miles...ill post in a day or two when I get them installed. Thanks for all your help on the forum.

Last edited by bmac7599; 10-25-2017 at 06:21 PM.
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post #15 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 06:47 PM
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The injectors always have power on them. The ecu switches the grounds.

Same as your ignition coils
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post #16 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Crap...well...
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post #17 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 10:26 PM
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just something to consider.


it helps to look at the wiring diagram so you're able to diagnose what SHOULD be there, before you start measuring. your meter is useless if you don't know what you're looking for.



if you probed both terminals on the injector for voltage that would be a different story. but if you just probed the hot wire and put the black lead from your meter to chassis or battery negative, you are fooling yourself.
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post #18 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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I've considered your response and verified my work. I do get a little voltage on the lower rail and it increases with throttle (checked the #1 Inj). The upper rail doesn't seem to get the same voltage feedback from the ECU. I've uploaded two videos to youtube to show what the bike does currently with the throttle being held and also trying to increase the throttle. Hopefully this will show what I'm dealing with.

https://youtu.be/aeffolfdRhs
https://youtu.be/mcMuaG9lTy0

I do appreciate your help though Wibbly, even if I do make stupid nugget mistakes in my troubleshooting.
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post #19 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 04:25 PM
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When you set your meter to dc volts it will give you the average voltage. Not the peak voltage.


So if you have 12 volts supplied, and your injectors are open 1/4 of the time, you will have 3vdc.

That's why dc reads zero when you put it on an ac line.


So if your main injectors show some volts across them and your secondaries don't then it's pretty clear the issue is that the ecu doesn't want them on.

Now to figure out why that's the case.
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post #20 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 04:43 PM
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After watching the videos, your bike is doing almost the exact same thing as mine. The one thing I didn't see that you tried was cleaning the injectors. ??

Your fuel problem is not related to the upper injectors because they don't kick on below 5k. So if the bike stumbles in the lower RPM range then your lower injectors are the only ones in play.

I don't know about yours but my problem came on immediately and hasn't gotten any better. I'm soaking both sets of injectors and praying that solves the problem. If it does I'll be sure to let you know.

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post #21 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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My problem started really getting out of hand a few months back. It was rideable before when someone backed into it but now I can't even hold a steady rpm as you can tell. So I might need to jump into the lower injectors and see what they look like.

Any other ideas?
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post #22 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 05:37 PM
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I don't know, maybe get a spray bottle of water, and set on to stream, and spray around vacuum hoses, and head gasket. See if you hear a "sucking" noise indicating a leak. Maybe confirm that the lines from your air box are connected.

You asked for ideas - I threw some at you, feel free to brush them off - they don't stick.
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post #23 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-27-2017, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know, maybe get a spray bottle of water, and set on to stream, and spray around vacuum hoses, and head gasket. See if you hear a "sucking" noise indicating a leak. Maybe confirm that the lines from your air box are connected.

You asked for ideas - I threw some at you, feel free to brush them off - they don't stick.
Thanks, I'll give that a shot when it's not raining. Only bad part of living at an apartments and not at my place in cali.
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post #24 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-28-2017, 01:05 AM
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Thanks, I'll give that a shot when it's not raining. Only bad part of living at an apartments and not at my place in cali.
Get yourself a paddock tent! Their cheap, and does the trick - even on those hot sunny days. Pick up a chair and a cooler and stock it full of beer. Put up a table with some lemonade, and make a little money on the side - hell yeah!

If you're feeling real good, get a decent stereo/speakers, and pump some bass out. Hire a local stripper to work your tent (not stripping, but meet and great kinda thing). Maybe don't sell anything at all at this point so you don't get into more trouble than you already might - but hell yeah do that - and post it up on youtube for sure! If you don't I am! LOL FOR SURE!

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post #25 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-28-2017, 09:13 AM
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Back in the day....lol.... We used to check for vacuum leaks with a spray can of carburetor cleaner. Not sure if that's an option for the bike but if you here the rpms go up then you found a leak. Just make sure you don't get it down the throttle body tubes. My '04 is coated with molybdenum and the cleaner will strip it off.

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post #26 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-28-2017, 01:26 PM
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What does a vac leak have to do with anything in this thread?

These bikes don't even really have a vacuum system. The only places subject to vacuum are the idle air control circuit and the throttle body boots.

And if it DID have a vac leak it would be incredibly evident at idle. The symptoms described don't point at that as a problem at all..
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post #27 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-30-2017, 12:13 AM
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What is your "hunch"? Understood that proper start to finish diagnostics is proper, but every experienced technician has a pre-conceived notion as to what they "predict" the issue might be.

Have you seen the OP's videos? Have you ever seen a bike do that before?

In the real world, management would be asking for your advice before any diagnostics was performed. They would be asking what is your best guess as to the issue.
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post #28 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-30-2017, 12:17 AM
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i'm applying logic instead of trying to pin the tail on the donkey.


at this point there's no reason to believe it's anything but the lack of the secondaries. he still hasn't seen them fire despite there being voltage on them. so the ecu isn't switching the grounds, or the ground it switches them to is open. (this is based on being able to test them with greater than 10 degrees throttle position and 4400 rpm as mentioned earlier, and also in the manual)

i have already mentioned this in a previous post. if nobody wants to take that for what it is that's their prerogative, but if people are going to start throwing illogical and brutally unlikely hail marys at the poor guy i'm going to say something.



maybe he has flat tires? did he check his tires? once my buddy had flat tires and his bike did the same thing.


see where i'm going with this? throwing out guesses isn't helpful. neither is suggesting spraying his engine with a water bottle and listening for "sucking", or your entire post #24.



i understand that you want to answer every help thread, but you could at least look stuff up before just throwing **** out there. i check manuals before answering threads all the time, i also check wiring diagrams, it's the way you can audit your own advice. if you don't you could very well just be hurting the guy who needed help in the first place.

Last edited by wibbly; 10-30-2017 at 12:20 AM.
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post #29 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-30-2017, 12:22 AM
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i'm applying logic instead of trying to pin the tail on the donkey.


at this point there's no reason to believe it's anything but the lack of the secondaries. he still hasn't seen them fire despite there being voltage on them. so the ecu isn't switching the grounds, or the ground it switches them to is open. (this is based on being able to test them with greater than 10 degrees throttle position and 4400 rpm as mentioned earlier, and also in the manual)

i have already mentioned this in a previous post. if nobody wants to take that for what it is that's their prerogative, but if people are going to start throwing illogical and brutally unlikely hail marys at the poor guy i'm going to say something.



maybe he has flat tires? did he check his tires? once my buddy had flat tires and his bike did the same thing.


see where i'm going with this? throwing out guesses isn't helpful.
So if we go with what you indicated in your bolded quote above, what is his next step?

Edited to add: Since he has tried a different ECU and the issue persists, he should be checking the ground that switches them to open? Where is this ground located?

Last edited by Axel Nut; 10-30-2017 at 12:31 AM.
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post #30 of 79 (permalink) Old 10-30-2017, 12:32 AM
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to force one of the injectors on by grounding the low side (he has verified 12v at the high side), if it comes on then check all grounds connected to the ecu for continuity to batt neg, if the grounds check out then to borrow and try a known good ecu (he mentions he has tried this, which made me originally question whether his testing procedure was proper)


the shower injectors come on all together, i don't know how the ecu is wired internally, but it stands to reason they may be switched through a single transistor, if they are switched by four individual transistors, it stands to reason they may be latched by a common gate signal.

these transistors in the ecu have been known to fail, most notably the one that switches the fuel pump relay coil.



the procedure is common sense. this thread started as a very simple question, and got convoluted into strippers and a bunch of bullshit.



if you think that you're being helpful here by questioning everything i say you can kindly **** off already.
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