Honda Threaten To Pull Out - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Honda Threaten To Pull Out

http://www.superbike.co.uk/race-news...gp-after-2016/
Dont see it on MotpGP site yet? but i found this link today

"Honda MotoGP boss Shuhei Nakamoto has warned that if Dorna go ahead with plans to introduce control ECU’s from 2016 then Honda would almost certainly quit MotoGP."

Wow, if the "developing" stage is not avail for Honda, and it will be with controlled ECU's looks like they will not be racing anymore.
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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"there is nothing stock about a stock car"........


they might as well just invent a MotoGP bike and have everyone have to drive on the exact same machine with the exact same setup.

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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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haha no kidn', just like any other sport though, there's always "better" teams than the rest.
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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IMO Controlled ECU's = more level playing field, which in turn will make the RIDER more relevant not the bike. I hope Honda doesnt leave, but i think im in favor of this. just my opinion ..
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 12:05 PM
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I think one of the main reason's Honda (along with Yamaha and Ducati) are in MotoGP is because of the R&D they are able to do during the season. A controlled ECU would eliminate most of that R&D as nothing would be allowed to change. Like the article said, if they can't do that, there is no reason for them to be racing MGP

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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 12:14 PM
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Blah. Nothing new. Nakamoto has been issuing this threat for years now. They aren't going anywhere....

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 12:17 PM
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I don't care either way. I say they go back to the 500cc days with out all the electronics, and see who can actually ride one of those beasts, and who is saved by the electronic crutch.

That was fun racing to watch. The risk that at any time the bike could launch you into low orbit made watching the races exciting. You don't get that often, nowadays.

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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 12:17 PM
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I can see the push for them wanting to make everything more affordable but it seems like recently motorsports just costs a lot more money than it used to. The money spent on big racing budgets is insane, and the materials/manufacturing costs are in the same boat. Its cool though how most of the tech trickles down a few years later, but it seems like the cost for the next step is a lot more.

There is so many regulations now in MotoGP that innovation is hard, they are pretty much stuck developing the same bikes and trying to eek out every inch of performance from the current standard.
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 12:55 PM
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Honda will survive without MotoGP.

If MotoGP provides no platform for furthering development in an electronics age, participation without innovation seems quite useless.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bridge_Jumper View Post
I think one of the main reason's Honda (along with Yamaha and Ducati) are in MotoGP is because of the R&D they are able to do during the season. A controlled ECU would eliminate most of that R&D as nothing would be allowed to change. Like the article said, if they can't do that, there is no reason for them to be racing MGP

I agree with this.

As much as i like to see a lot of riders contending for first place, factories need R&D. Otherwise why be there? Why invest money in a race team if you can't use your latest technology to try and be the best.

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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 02:36 PM
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I get where Honda is coming from. It's like telling Usain bolt to give the other guys a half second lead. But for the sake of competition maybe give a little back until the series has a few more factory teams. Soon you won't have anyone to race with.
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 02:44 PM
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It just sucks that if it's a dry race it's the same three guys or two teams taking every race. Honda really needs to be put in place. I don't hear red Bull racing making threats with the new rules in f1. Act like a champ.
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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 04:41 PM
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I'm with Honda on this. The purpose of MotoGP's existence is the same as F1: to drive innovation by racing prototype machines. The ECU plays a huge part in this. I wouldn't be totally against rules that limit tinkering with the ECU to some degree but eliminating it from the equation entirely is the wrong move IMO.
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2013, 04:47 PM
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what honda wants...honda gets

"im ADDICTED to the ADDICTION,so i guess that makes me an ADDICT then"
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-22-2013, 03:04 AM
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what honda wants...honda gets
Yeah I like HondaGP.
--

The whole point of racing prototypes is R&D. But, no one has a budget like Honda's, so what Dorna wants to accomplish for the sake of the sport is good but the method is flawed. If Dorna cares more about the sport and its profit stream in the long run then it should support the other primary players like Yamaha and Ducati, in addition to (quickly) getting Kawasaki and Aprilia in the game as well. For many of the latter companies it is the financials that are holding them back, with a strong support program Dorna can achieve much more than a control ECU ever will.

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-24-2013, 03:17 AM
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MotoGP is a business

While prototype racing does indeed drive R&D it's not why the guys who run (own) MotoGP are investing. MotoGP is a business just like any other business and it has to make money or the guys who own it will take their money and go somewhere else. MotoGP makes money by staging a spectacle that people will pay to watch. The basic formula is to put on a race with the most advanced bikes on the planet and the best riders. For that to happen there has to be some R&D but it doesn't mean anything goes. Without some boundaries then it just turns into a game of 'The guy with the most money wins'. It's pretty much that way now and it's a reason some manufacturers don't compete - it's not a motor sport race it's a spending contest.

While we want the bikes to make technical advances the reality is that the market isn't backing up that sentiment with ticket sales and DORNA is feeling the pinch. What they do know is that close racing (and a close championship) sells tickets so they are trying to find a balance where the teams can innovate and the fans will get an exciting race. Of course Honda want's things to stay exactly the way they are because they are winning.

If they put in a spec ECU's next year and didn't tell anyone how many people here would be able to tell? There are some harder core guys here who would be able to tell that the top guys weren't as sharp for some reason and there would be more bikes at the pointy end but it would be hard to pin down the exact reason. Pretty much the teams that can figure out how to get around the track the fastest will still win - they just won't do it by being clever about having the bike retune itself for every section of track like they do now.

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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 04:40 AM
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While prototype racing does indeed drive R&D it's not why the guys who run (own) MotoGP are investing. MotoGP is a business just like any other business and it has to make money or the guys who own it will take their money and go somewhere else. MotoGP makes money by staging a spectacle that people will pay to watch. The basic formula is to put on a race with the most advanced bikes on the planet and the best riders. For that to happen there has to be some R&D but it doesn't mean anything goes. Without some boundaries then it just turns into a game of 'The guy with the most money wins'. It's pretty much that way now and it's a reason some manufacturers don't compete - it's not a motor sport race it's a spending contest.

While we want the bikes to make technical advances the reality is that the market isn't backing up that sentiment with ticket sales and DORNA is feeling the pinch. What they do know is that close racing (and a close championship) sells tickets so they are trying to find a balance where the teams can innovate and the fans will get an exciting race. Of course Honda want's things to stay exactly the way they are because they are winning.

If they put in a spec ECU's next year and didn't tell anyone how many people here would be able to tell? There are some harder core guys here who would be able to tell that the top guys weren't as sharp for some reason and there would be more bikes at the pointy end but it would be hard to pin down the exact reason. Pretty much the teams that can figure out how to get around the track the fastest will still win - they just won't do it by being clever about having the bike retune itself for every section of track like they do now.
I'm all for rider skill over technology, and I think you are going to get to a point where the tech will become so bloody expensive that it just makes no sense to impement in mass production.

In the end I guess you could do either; help others with their R&D so they can compete with Honda, or curtail Honda's R&D. With the way things are looking, if Honda leaves, we will still have the same problem with Yamaha regining supreme. There is no way of telling whether Suzuki will be competitive regardless of how promising things might look, and even if they do it'll be two marquees fighting for the championship.....back to square one.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 08:53 AM
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I know I'll sound like a newb asking this but I havent heard that term before so would that mean an identical ecu like the tires in F1?

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 11:15 AM
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I know I'll sound like a newb asking this but I havent heard that term before so would that mean an identical ecu like the tires in F1?

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Spec ECUs are standardized ECUs with very little to tweak (if anything), basically it unifies the playing level as far as electronics are concerned.

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 11:58 AM
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Spec ECUs are standardized ECUs with very little to tweak (if anything), basically it unifies the playing level as far as electronics are concerned.
I wanted to make sure before I say that's a retarded idea imo...for multiple reasons but for an objective example look at 2013 F1 season with Pirelli, especially around the middle of it when tires were exploding. Furthermore Honda has been making motorcycles since '58, I'd be surprised if they weren't where they are.

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 12:05 PM
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A cap on development spending, if anything at all, is as far as it should go...limiting what can be brought to the table is one thing, but anything that could equalize the outcome is bad for sport, the economy...practically anything.

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 02:07 PM
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I wanted to make sure before I say that's a retarded idea imo...for multiple reasons but for an objective example look at 2013 F1 season with Pirelli, especially around the middle of it when tires were exploding. Furthermore Honda has been making motorcycles since '58, I'd be surprised if they weren't where they are.

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What does the tyre problems in f1 have to do with the ecu rule? Moto gp is no stranger to tyre problems themselves. It almost decided the outcome of the championship.

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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-25-2013, 02:49 PM
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What does the tyre problems in f1 have to do with the ecu rule? Moto gp is no stranger to tyre problems themselves. It almost decided the outcome of the championship.

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Competition is good, and a lack of it also means a lack of innovation and progress because the incentive is gone. It's straight economics, but it applies.

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 09:51 AM
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Competition is good, and a lack of it also means a lack of innovation and progress because the incentive is gone. It's straight economics, but it applies.

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Good luck getting that to change. Competition is good, but when cost force out all the other factories just like in moto gp what do you have. No competition.
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 09:53 AM
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And as crazy as it sounds the f1 tires were meant to degrade fast especially the supersofts, not explode I'll give you that.
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 10:15 AM
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That's why I think a spending cap isn't that bad of an idea. It evens the field in a way and having a focus on cost would keep it in check more than now.

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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 12:15 PM
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I'm with you on a spending cap. Having more players in the game...a bigger field with lower costs will greatly benefit the sport and the fans. It has drastically affected other sports (positively) no reason why it wouldn't work in GP.

To that end, I'd rather see just displacement and weight standards, and let the builders figure out how win...rather than limiting ECU's...tires...etc.


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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 12:33 PM
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I'm with you on a spending cap. Having more players in the game...a bigger field with lower costs will greatly benefit the sport and the fans. It has drastically affected other sports (positively) no reason why it wouldn't work in GP.

To that end, I'd rather see just displacement and weight standards, and let the builders figure out how win...rather than limiting ECU's...tires...etc.
Exactly, too many constraints and it'll be creativity and ingenuity that suffers most.

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 02:49 PM
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Exactly, too many constraints and it'll be creativity and ingenuity that suffers most.

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You can't have your cake and eat it too. Not limiting things like ecu's or engine development is part of the reason things are so expensive. And when companies like BMW, suzuki, kawi see the kind of money it takes to compete they do what they have already done, packed it up or just say no thanks not worth it.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-26-2013, 04:50 PM
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If there is a standardized spending limit, that would give the companies all an even playing field...(well, not really, but theoretically considering Honda and Yamaha are years ahead)..but if enforced properly could make the "throw money at it" way of the current GP into a streamlined technology GP. (for all the companies involved)

Budgets would shrink and would require a less radical machine to play the game.

To that end: If Honda wants to take their ball and go home because Dorna is trying to get more manufacturers into the game...f' Honda in their a$$. Why not dominate the sport where EVERYONE is playing rather than just a couple manufacturers?


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