Motegi Discussion (SPOILERS) - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Motegi Discussion (SPOILERS)

Nicky just sounds like a broken man listening to his interviews after Motegi. Sounds like he's about to bawl. I doubt I'd be feeling any different knowing that Rossi is about to humiliate my arse and steal a title back.

But maybe things wouldn't be like this if HRC didn't keep giving Hayden such a hard time with development parts, funky chassis, and effed up clutches. It's like they wanted D.Piddy to win so bad that they didn't take Hayden very seriously.

I just don't understand how he had such a competitive bike in the first half of the season and now he has no rear grip, clutch issues, and lack of speed. I mean he couldn't even catch up to a ZX-RR on the straights. That is really pathetic for a Honda bike.

I'm no Nicky fan, but I am so tired of seeing Rossi win and win. And then get away with illegal stuff and escaping punishment. He's always been able to get away with crap and it's taxing to see all the time.

I really hope Nicky pulls himself together for the last 2 races and wins his first GP title. I'd be really happy for him. But if he loses, the next 2 years at Honda are going to be awful for him...
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 02:46 PM
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I agree. I'm neither a Hayden or Rossi fan, but yeah, I thought it was kind of odd that Rossi wasn't penalized. I sort of understand Hayden's frustration...I mean, it's such a tight race at this point and the rules are if the penalty isn't assessed during the race, then they can't do it after the race. How hokey is that? On the other hand, maybe Hayden should put on the "stiff upper lip" and eke out a win in spite of his adversities. Prove that he really deserves to be champion and doesn't need to have the crown handed to him.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:07 PM
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HRC has been to sacrifice a championship just so they could learn as much as possible with their concepts of prototype parts for next years' bike, remember the NR500's (oval pistons & 8valves per cylinder V4) when HRC decided to go back into GP racing they spent huge amounts of resources for 3 years & not a single GP championship did they reap with that but they have valuable lessons gained from that experience & the next year they made an NS500 (V3 2stroke) & took the championship.

HRC is all about technical superiority, they want a bike that can be piloted by any rider & still win races, put a good rider & win some races but put the best rider & win championships.

but lately it seems Ducati is headed toward the right direction & with an annual budget of less than 25% of what HRC spends for a season they certainly making it for the hoards of HRC engineers back in japan harder to come up with something better to improve the RC211V, they have probably maxed out the potential what the current RC211V has to offer.

like the original RC211V they must start with a clean sheet of paper & build it from the ground up with no shared components from the 990cc bike, Ducati has learned a big deal from their WSBK domination & has transferred the technology to their GP program with amazing results but the same could not be said to HRC whereas the CBR1000RR hasn't won a single WSBK championship but it's smaller sibling the CBR600RR still dominates the WSS class for 3years running, that is the kind of result HRC is expecting of their bikes but there's an old saying "what works for one may not work for the others".

as for 800cc MotoGP bike i'll bet it would be much similar to the RC45 but without the single-sided swingarms & if Honda wins championships with it you can expect a road going version to be made in very limited quantities & a stratospheric price tag to match.


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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:08 PM
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Aren
you are the one who called hayden the biggest chump ever
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.p...6&page=2&pp=15 post # 29
so make up your mind is he the biggest chump ever or is the HRC
guys a bunch of chumps



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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:11 PM
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I like Hayden, well besides his redneck accent, and I would like him to win but he has been nothing but a big choke these last few races.

Rossi will reign supreme yet again.


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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OveRReV
HRC has been to sacrifice a championship just so they could learn as much as possible with their concepts of prototype parts for next years' bike, remember the NR500's (oval pistons & 8valves per cylinder V4) when HRC decided to go back into GP racing they spent huge amounts of resources for 3 years & not a single GP championship did they reap with that but they have valuable lessons gained from that experience & the next year they made an NS500 (V3 2stroke) & took the championship.



but lately it seems Ducati is headed toward the right direction & with an annual budget of less than 25% of what HRC spends for a season they certainly making it for the hoards of HRC engineers back in japan harder to come up with something better to improve the RC211V, they have probably maxed out the potential what the current RC211V has to offer.

like the original RC211V they must start with a clean sheet of paper & build it from the ground up with no shared components from the 990cc bike, Ducati has learned a big deal from their WSBK domination & has transferred the technology to their GP program with amazing results but the same could not be said to HRC whereas the CBR1000RR hasn't won a single WSBK championship but it's smaller sibling the CBR600RR still dominates the WSS class for 3years running, that is the kind of result HRC is expecting of their bikes but there's an old saying "what works for one may not work for the others".
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OveRReV
HRC has been to sacrifice a championship just so they could learn as much as possible with their concepts of prototype parts for next years' bike, remember the NR500's (oval pistons & 8valves per cylinder V4) when HRC decided to go back into GP racing they spent huge amounts of resources for 3 years & not a single GP championship did they reap with that but they have valuable lessons gained from that experience & the next year they made an NS500 (V3 2stroke) & took the championship.
Honda wasn't so much sacrificing a few championships in order to learn with the NR as they were trying to beat 2 stroke bikes with a 4 stroke. Soichiro Honda detested 2-strokes and in the past Honda was able to do beat them with 4-strokes so they figured they could do it again.

In the late 50's and going into the 60's they achieved it by adding cylinders, valves, revs, and gears. So, true to form, they had planned to build a V8 but the GP rules limited cylinders to 4. The NR500's oval pistoned engine was a solution to that limitation that just ended up not working out well enough to win races at the time.

Quote:
but lately it seems Ducati is headed toward the right direction & with an annual budget of less than 25% of what HRC spends for a season they certainly making it for the hoards of HRC engineers back in japan harder to come up with something better to improve the RC211V, they have probably maxed out the potential what the current RC211V has to offer.
Ducati Corse has about 100 employees and HRC has about 125. Notice that Ducati Corse doesn't give its customer team (D'Antin) anywhere near the support that Honda gives to its customers. Don't get me wrong, Ducati has done a fantastic job but they are not doing with significantly less employees nor with a shoestring budget. Less than Honda for sure though.

The whole reason Honda gave Nicky the 06 RCV is because they felt the 05 has reached the end of its development cycle and was not going to get much faster. The 06 was by no means a world beater when they started the season but they were hoping that by the end of the season the could reach enough of its potential to win consistently. Unfortunately I don't think they're there yet.

Quote:
like the original RC211V they must start with a clean sheet of paper & build it from the ground up with no shared components from the 990cc bike, Ducati has learned a big deal from their WSBK domination & has transferred the technology to their GP program with amazing results but the same could not be said to HRC whereas the CBR1000RR hasn't won a single WSBK championship but it's smaller sibling the CBR600RR still dominates the WSS class for 3years running, that is the kind of result HRC is expecting of their bikes but there's an old saying "what works for one may not work for the others".
Well number 1, Ducati is not competing against full-on HRC bikes in WSBK, they're all effectively privateer CBR1000RR's, with some support from Honda Europe for Ten Kate at least.

Look at the CBR1000RR's (the HM Plant bikes are full-on HRC leased bikes) in BSB and they won the constructors title last year and just narrowly missed out on the rider's title. This year Kiyonari is in a tight points battle for the championship with Lavilla and Haslam. The current CBR1000RR is probably not as good a starting point for racing as the K5 GSX-R1000 but I think HRC bikes would be doing a bit better against factory Ducatis.

Quote:
as for 800cc MotoGP bike i'll bet it would be much similar to the RC45 but without the single-sided swingarms & if Honda wins championships with it you can expect a road going version to be made in very limited quantities & a stratospheric price tag to match.
Unless the 800 has a V4 I doubt it will have anything to do with the RC45. The RC45 was had handling problems and didn't do as well on the world stage as its predecessor (RC30) or its successor (RC51).
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:51 PM
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The whole reason Honda gave Nicky the 06 RCV is because they felt the 05 has reached the end of its development cycle and was not going to get much faster.
And yet little 20 year old Pedrosa still hands Nicky's ass to him on the old bike.


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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 03:57 PM
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Aren
you are the one who called hayden the biggest chump ever
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.p...6&page=2&pp=15 post # 29
so make up your mind is he the biggest chump ever or is the HRC
guys a bunch of chumps

Wow, good memory Moe!
post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 04:09 PM
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i have gut feeling they'll let Nicky have whatever he needs these last 2 races. be it his favorite clutch, his favorite chassis, or whatever.

He can't afford to place less than 3rd these next two races.

PREDICTION: WRITE THIS IN STONE! Hayden WILL win the Championship by 5 points.

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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 04:12 PM
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I llike it, a man with some Cajones! Forget Rossi, I agree with NesNeedsBoost....Hayden is winning this one baby! I will go out on a limb with ya bro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NesNeedsBoost
i have gut feeling they'll let Nicky have whatever he needs these last 2 races. be it his favorite clutch, his favorite chassis, or whatever.

He can't afford to place less than 3rd these next two races.

PREDICTION: WRITE THIS IN STONE! Hayden WILL win the Championship by 5 points.
post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by crotch_rocket_pilot
I llike it, a man with some Cajones! Forget Rossi, I agree with NesNeedsBoost....Hayden is winning this one baby! I will go out on a limb with ya bro.
i will jump on that bandwagon with you guys!!! GO NICKY!!!!!!!!!!
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TOMIMOTO
And yet little 20 year old Pedrosa still hands Nicky's ass to him on the old bike.
\

Maybe you missed the last 2 races...

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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 05:43 PM
 
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so what is the absolute worse case position that hayden can place in the last 2 races and still win the championship?? any math wizzes here wanna do the math on that one??
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jonnyringo893
so what is the absolute worse case position that hayden can place in the last 2 races and still win the championship?? any math wizzes here wanna do the math on that one??
If Rossi wins both races, Hayden needs to be 2nd place both times to win the Championship by 2 points.

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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 06:50 PM
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i will jump on that bandwagon with you guys!!! GO NICKY!!!!!!!!!!
me too!!! Go Hayden!!!!!!!!!






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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by moeman
Aren
you are the one who called hayden the biggest chump ever
https://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.p...6&page=2&pp=15 post # 29
so make up your mind is he the biggest chump ever or is the HRC
guys a bunch of chumps

If Hayden loses, then yes he is going to be the biggest chump in the GP paddock. But I don't exactly know at what point HRC started to slack off or Hayden just couldn't cut it, you know?

But who cares what I think anyway? I just wanted to start a thread and hear everyone else's opinions and stuff.
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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Irish
The whole reason Honda gave Nicky the 06 RCV is because they felt the 05 has reached the end of its development cycle and was not going to get much faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOMIMOTO
And yet little 20 year old Pedrosa still hands Nicky's ass to him on the old bike.
Dani is doing excellent in his first year no doubt but he's not exactly handing Nicky his ass. Dani has not had more points than Nicky at any time in the season except for the first race.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyringo893
so what is the absolute worse case position that hayden can place in the last 2 races and still win the championship?? any math wizzes here wanna do the math on that one??
in short - hayden needs to finish infront of rossi or finish just right behind him...
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:26 PM
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It seems to me that Hayden's problems started after the summer break...he's been very patient and has always said in his interviews that when it comes time it's he who has got to get faster and can't place the blame on anyone else. He's saying that because he's got incredible sportsmanship and he doesn't want to talk bad about what HRC is making him do (trying new parts, etc.) because he understands that as the lead rider, that's part of his job. But because of that, people are blaming him for not posting wins since that's what they're hearing Nicky say (that it's his fault). I think people need to understand there's more to it and sometimes it's the rider, sometimes it's the bike.

This time, it was the bike. Nicky's start was terrible and I'm sure that someone of his talent and skill level has a very small chance of screwing up the start to the extent of having his bike hop like that.
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:34 PM
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Its a team effort so to say its either Nicky's or HRC's fault is a bit unfair to both parties. HRC gave him a new clutch and maybe he just wasn't used to it yet or maybe it was too difficult to slip properly to get a good start. Even if he had gotten a good start he still needed a little bit more race pace to have been able to fight with Rossi.

Although I'm sure everyone would like to see Nicky test the 800 tomorrow, that time might be better spent testing the Evo. They're going to need every bit of speed they can possibly get if they're going to beat Rossi to the title.
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NesNeedsBoost
If Rossi wins both races, Hayden needs to be 2nd place both times to win the Championship by 2 points.
so what would happen if a draw in the points were to happen?? how would it be decided then?? by most laps led, most races won in the season, or fastest lap time?? now THAT would be interesting.
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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-24-2006, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyringo893
so what would happen if a draw in the points were to happen?? how would it be decided then?? by most laps led, most races won in the season, or fastest lap time?? now THAT would be interesting.
Most wins, last week Melandri & Pedrosa were tied for points but Melandri was ahead in the standings (3rd vs. 4th) because of more wins.



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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 02:02 AM
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 02:23 AM
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i got that rossi feeling, his momentum might just carry him all the way this year, frustration could be the down fall of nicky along with the predicitable nothing to lose race from someone like stoner who could wreck it all..... then there is seta, the curse could dry up!!!!
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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aren
If Hayden loses, then yes he is going to be the biggest chump in the GP paddock. But I don't exactly know at what point HRC started to slack off or Hayden just couldn't cut it, you know?

But who cares what I think anyway? I just wanted to start a thread and hear everyone else's opinions and stuff.
It happened after Laguna. That's when Honda decided to test out a new clutch and clutch location. Hayden had been struggling with a clutch problem all year, but it was after Laguna they made another change that has gone from bad to worse.

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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 09:03 AM
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At least Honda is trying to solve his problems. He had a new clutch package in at Motegi, probably why he wheelie/hopped the front at the start; this is from an interview with Cycle News before Motegi:

“They definitely have some stuff to try this week to fix our clutch problems,” Hayden said, his position in the middle of the five riders on the dais signifying his championship position. “I went from first to almost last, so I mean, you know that’s disastrous, so hopefully I have something in the morning that's better.”

At least they're trying something. They've been testing new clutch packages since after Sepang, where they had a new clutch that worked well, but according to Hayden, they went back to the old one, which wasn't "very good" as he said.

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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 12:02 PM
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the next two races will be interesting. to ask nicky to come in second in both races if rossi wins both is asking alot considering nickys past performances. both have rossi gain 12 pts in two races may be an easy task for him. just hope nicky can pull it through but my gut is telling me that nicky may end up losing it.

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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 12:19 PM
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It is very likely that Rossi will win the next two races, but how likely is it that Hayden will place second? There's a lot of guys who have really found a good rhythm in the last couple races, in particular, Loris Capirossi! With the way Hayden has been riding lately, I really dont think he can keep the likes of Melandri and Capirossi behind him.

And Rossi is not going to "steal" his title back...It was his in the first place, so he is going to KEEP his title!

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006, 05:19 PM
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And Rossi is not going to "steal" his title back...It was his in the first place, so he is going to KEEP his title!
The title was Hayden's to lose and it looks like he may just do that.....If Rossi takes the title again it will be the most exciting come back in years.

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