For all the knocks on Hayden backing it in.... - 600RR.net
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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For all the knocks on Hayden backing it in....

Did anyone notice Tony Elias won the race backing it in heavily in almost every corner? He simply was outbraking everyone, backing the bike in and passing them.

That's how he beat Rossi and KRJR in Estoril.

The knock on Hayden from the 250 riders is he backs it in more than trying to take the smoother line (which I agree is the faster way around a corner) but if it works for Elias to beat Rossi, why wouldn't it work for Hayden.

I will say this, when the 800s come to town, the 250 riders are going to own and Superbike riders in GP racing will be a thing of the past.... (unless we get bike/rider weight limits).
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 01:58 PM
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I don't think it'll really matter that much. Sure the bikes are smaller, but significantly so? You're talking about going from 990s to 800s, as opposed to, going from 250 to 800s. From what I hear, the power on those 800s will be up to 990s the way technology is advancing. But yeah, I don't think that there will be a huge weight discrepency. And yeah, Hayden likes to back it in, but he's learning how to be smooth too. Think of it this way, I think Hayden's got a good combination: He can back it in SB style or cornerspeed it 250 style. It's like a quarterback who can make all the throws. Or a pitcher that has an extensive repetoire. He'll be fine. He'll put a lot of laps on the bike in the winter. It'll all be fun anyways, particularly if he takes the checkered flag in Valencia.

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:03 PM
 
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I cant wait until 5 years form now when the motogp class is 500cc(again,but 4 strokes) 230 lb. bikes.....
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:06 PM
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Elias was riding the piss out of that bike, it was awesome to watch. He was so late on the brakes but still held good exit speed. That line he took on the corner where Rossi snuck in front was genious.

I wanna learn how to back it in!

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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:11 PM
 
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It's amazing the talent he has when it was contract time huh???

LOL.....If he can do this all year then 2007 will be great.
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:32 PM
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hell yeah it was sweet watching elias slide into the corners...it was so pimp...he gets real low when hes leaning too...hes a fun rider to watch

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:39 PM
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that my friends, was riding 110%. i think i counted 3 times that he almost wrecked/went off track... and that's what it took to beat rossi. awesome to watch, but when it comes to winning champtionships...well, ask biaggi what happens when you ride over your head for more then 5 laps.



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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RelfF2
that my friends, was riding 110%. i think i counted 3 times that he almost wrecked/went off track... and that's what it took to beat rossi. awesome to watch, but when it comes to winning champtionships...well, ask biaggi what happens when you ride over your head for more then 5 laps.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! best statement yet. And thats what it will take to beat Rossi...
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:44 PM
 
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Rossi would have walked away from them had he not known Hayden was out and who was behind him. He knew what he had to do...not wreck or take anymore chances than he needed to. You actually think Rossi would have let Elias beat him? Elias was riding for next year and Rossi was riding for the title. Yeah he would have a bigger lead had he won...but had he pushed himself harder like we know he can there was a chance he would have crashed out.

I can only hope Hayden is on top of his game and Rossi has issues like he had earlier in the year. With saying that...do I think Hayden can't run with Rossi...wrong...I think he can but he needs Rossi to fall back and not be right behind him. So I am hoping for some more technical difficulties for Rossi.
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:49 PM
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tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.



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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RelfF2
tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.
For real....Toni DUG DEEP to ride like that.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:56 PM
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all was on the table for toni it seemed. INSANE riding capability!!! will he ride that way again at valencia ?? that would be fun to watch with the excitement going on point wise.

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 02:58 PM
 
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He will.....100,000 screaming spainards says he will be goin for it.

So will Dani.....
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by vizsladog
He will.....100,000 screaming spainards says he will be goin for it.

So will Dani.....
correct me if i am wrong... but isnt that rossi's favorite track as well ?

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 03:14 PM
 
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I know he likes it....should be great.
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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 03:54 PM
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Yeah Rossi almost wrecked trying to get past Elias the last time.

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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RelfF2
tony, not completely true. did you hear rossi's interview? he knew the difference between 1st and 2nd was 5 points, and had to calculate how important those 5 points were. at the end he decided it was worth a try and set up a move. did he hang it out for the win? no. but he didn't lay back either. don't take all of it away from Elias.
You guys are right Elias rode his ass off but I still think Rossi would have won under normal conditions. For example, just by him saying he thought things through and decided to go for the extra points tells me his first thought wasn't to go balls out. The situation made him think it through and normally there wouldn't have been anything to think about. His killer insticnt would have pushed him right by Elias.

I do give credit where it is due...Elias rode well and deserves the win. Had Rossi won I would have been more pissed than I am now...being a Hayden fan and all. Thanks Elias :) Now if Roberts hadn't of thought the next to last lap was the last one maybe hayden would only be 4 points down.
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 09:49 PM
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the power on those 800s will be up to 990s the way technology is advancing.
+1.

I agree with you, but the only way to make that kind've power out of a smaller engine is rev the crap out of it. (See: the new R6). Which would be more like a two stroke powerband. I gotta say the 250 guys may have a leg up on anyone who's only raced 4-stroke superbikes.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 10:07 PM
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Backing it in doesn't really result in having a smoother/faster line through a corner. In fact, it's actually a bit slower on the GP bikes. If you combine their light weight, crazy electronics, and advanced tires it results in a bike that can rip through a corner using extreme lean angles and higher speeds. Backing it in is a very useful defensive technique and also a good way to make passes because you can be late on the brakes.

Even Rossi has quoted saying that he doesn't slide anymore because the tires are so good now that you end up going slower if you slide around. But if you're leading and someone is trying to pass you, then getting the bike sideways (perpendicular to the apex somewhat) covers more ground and can deter a rider from taking a certain line to pass.

But I'm not too sure on the debate of whether backing it in saves tires or eats them up. I've always thought it saved tires because you're not riding on the edge of the tire to make a turn, rather using wheelspin and steering forces to get around.


Onto the 800s:

You guys honestly think a 190cc restriction is going to make the MotoGP bikes rev crazy and have hostile power bands like the GP bikes of yesteryear? That's insane. The goal of each team is to build a bike with useable/manageable power with good tractability.

These bikes will just have higher rev ceilings, slightly smaller powerbands, and the biggest difference will be straight line speed (the entire point of the restriciton). I think corner speed will slightly increase with the lower weight and advances in electronics and tires. Even in the 500cc days, Honda was always trying to build a GP bike with useable power and a "friendly" torque curve. The new bikes are going to be nowhere near a 2-stoke in terms of power. Currently, the bikes build power smoothly from 3,000 to whatever RPM (I'm just speculating here). The new 800s will probably start building power a bit later. After that, it will be a question of whether a manufacturer wants more power or tractability, resulting in peaky and smooth power respectively.

The 250cc riders aren't going to have this huge advantage that some of you believe. They still have to deal with 4-stroke characteristics like engine-braking. Sure, the transition from a 250cc 2-stroke to a 800cc 4-stroke is going to be less difficult than if the rules never changed at all, but not to the degree that I'm reading here.

I do see the the GSV-R (finally) and the Ilmor/Suter X3 doing well because of their use of pneumatic valves. The high(er) revving bikes will take full advantage of that F1 technology. Hopefully, we'll see Hopper on the podium for once.

To sum it up:

GP racing is NOT going to be turned upside-down because of lower displacement and slightly altered power curves. And 250cc riders aren't going to have it any easier, it's just going to be a bit less difficult for them. That's it.

Last edited by aren; 10-17-2006 at 10:25 PM.
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by aren
Backing it in doesn't really result in having a smoother/faster line through a corner. In fact, it's actually a bit slower on the GP bikes. If you combine their light weight, crazy electronics, and advanced tires it results in a bike that can rip through a corner using extreme lean angles and higher speeds. Backing it in is a very useful defensive technique and also a good way to make passes because you can be late on the brakes.

Even Rossi has quoted saying that he doesn't slide anymore because the tires are so good now that you end up going slower if you slide around. But if you're leading and someone is trying to pass you, then getting the bike sideways (perpendicular to the apex somewhat) covers more ground and can deter a rider from taking a certain line to pass.

But I'm not too sure on the debate of whether backing it in saves tires or eats them up. I've always thought it saved tires because you're not riding on the edge of the tire to make a turn, rather using wheelspin and steering forces to get around.
I didn't mean to imply that backing it in is the faster way around. I know it's the slower way. What I was implying is that you CAN back it and still be fast. Elias proved that :)


Quote:
Onto the 800s:

The 250cc riders aren't going to have this huge advantage that some of you believe. They still have to deal with 4-stroke characteristics like engine-braking. Sure, the transition from a 250cc 2-stroke to a 800cc 4-stroke is going to be less difficult than if the rules never changed at all, but not to the degree that I'm reading here.

I do see the the GSV-R (finally) and the Ilmor/Suter X3 doing well because of their use of pneumatic valves. The high(er) revving bikes will take full advantage of that F1 technology. Hopefully, we'll see Hopper on the podium for once.

To sum it up:

GP racing is NOT going to be turned upside-down because of lower displacement and slightly altered power curves. And 250cc riders aren't going to have it any easier, it's just going to be a bit less difficult for them. That's it.
Here is my take on the 800s. Removing 190ccs is removing a LOT of torque from the bikes. Torque matters a lot when you are carrying extra weight. It's what gives you good drive out of the corners.

The 800s will be down on torque by a good margin. With lighter cranks, that will shave even more torque. Now, slap a 105lb rider vs a 150lb rider on the same bike and the advantage goes directly to the lighter rider.

Pedrosa, Capirossi, Stoner, Melandri. They will all have an advantage. I think MotoGP needs to implement a minimum rider/weight restriction to insure the BEST riders get on the track and not just the smallest, lightest....

Otherwise you'll see no more AMA/WSBK/BSBK, etc riders making it to MotoGP unless they're tiny. Like DiSalvo....
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer
I think MotoGP needs to implement a minimum rider/weight restriction to insure the BEST riders get on the track and not just the smallest, lightest....

Otherwise you'll see no more AMA/WSBK/BSBK, etc riders making it to MotoGP unless they're tiny. Like DiSalvo....
you are funny.....
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 10:24 AM
 
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yeah...like make weight classes...I am sure their is some amazingly skilled fat arse sitting around thinking if I could only lose 80 pounds.
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 10:30 AM
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yeah...like make weight classes...I am sure their is some amazingly skilled fat arse sitting around thinking if I could only lose 80 pounds.
Best post I read all day...thanks.
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 10:40 AM
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holy crap, rossi looking behind him after elias passed him the first time, like "WTF?!?!"
of all the people in this season that Rossi would expect to have to fight for the lead with Pedrosa, Nicky, Stoner, Edwards, Capirex, Gibber, Melandri, etc but Elias coming out of nowhere was crazy
i was ROTFLMAO for the rest of the race


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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by tony.holes
yeah...like make weight classes...I am sure their is some amazingly skilled fat arse sitting around thinking if I could only lose 80 pounds.
You obviously don't understand.

They do this in F1 I believe and in other classes as well to insure tiny riders don't have an advantage. It's not to let fat guys IN, it's to insure that the diminutive riders aren't at a much greater advantage.

And it's not like I am the only one calling for this. Several of the professional race magazines have said the same thing.

If there is no MINIMUM rider/weight restriction, especially now that they are going to smaller engines, some great riders will never make it to the GP class.

And 150lbs isn't fat by any means. It's roughly what Rossi weighs. Pedrosa is 105lbs. That's a 45lb advantage and will be HEIGHTENED when they go to 800s next year (less torque gives advantange to the lightest riders).

All they would do is add weight to the bike to get the bike/rider combos all similar. That way you can find out who the best rider really is.

This is NOT a new or unheard of conecpt in racing. In fact, it's been around for a long time.

(PS: Your smart alleck reply makes me glad my pathetic Buccaneers beat the Bungles - haha)

Last edited by SilverSurfer; 10-18-2006 at 11:50 AM.
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 12:12 PM
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Agreed. There are combined weight limits in may different forms of racing where the driver makes up a much smaller percentage of the total weight of the vehicle. It's almost criminal that Moto GP doesn't do this (yet).
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer
I didn't mean to imply that backing it in is the faster way around. I know it's the slower way. What I was implying is that you CAN back it and still be fast. Elias proved that :)
Gary Mcoy proved that a long time ago. He was known for his style of sliding the rear wheel, and still being quick.
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-19-2006, 03:01 AM
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SilverSurfer:

I hope you realize that you're comparing the wrong figures. Instead of comparing the drop from 990cc to 800cc you should be looking at the weight minimums for the number of cylinders in MotoGP.

The current rules state that bikes with 4-5 cylinders have a minimum weight of 145 kg (319 lb). The rules for 07 state that bikes with 4 cylinders should have a min of 148 kg (325.6 lb). You say Pedrosa has a weight advantage of approximately 45 lbs (20.5 kg). Well, as of now his weight advantage is only 14.11% of the entire bike. Next year it will decrease to 13.82%. These numbers compare rider weight to machine. Pedrosa's weight is around 32% of the RCV's claimed 319 lbs, whereas Hayden's weight is around 47%.

That's not that much of a difference. You see what I'm getting at?

The only real change in weight distribution and bike characteristics will be engine braking from the smaller displacement. Even then, who knows what Honda's bore x stroke numbers will be. They will obviously reduce the stroke to make it rev higher, but maybe the bore won't even change as much as we think.

The RCV has 5 cylinders, each displacing 198ccs. The new RCV has 4 cylinders, each displacing 200ccs. I don't understand where this weight advantage is coming from when nothing is even changing that much. The only real change is that next year the bike will weigh MORE.

Lighter cranks you say? Most bikes utilize heavier cranks and flywheels to aid in tractability. That has been a common practice in GPs for awhile now (since KRSR's days).

So explain to me where this Pedrosa weight thing is coming from. Unless you're referring to the weight savings of 5 oz (approx.) of fuel in the combustion chamber...
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-19-2006, 03:20 AM
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Wha??? Anyone who knows anything about engines knows that less displacement = less torque. If there is less torque to work with it will be more difficult to accelerate a given mass. That's why the 800 will favor lighter riders even more than the 990's did.
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-19-2006, 03:21 AM
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i believe its 1 lb= roughly 1/7 of a HP... So 7lbs= 1 HP. so 42 lbs is about 6hp advantage. At the level these guys are at 6 ponies is HUGE. Hell, 6 HP in club racign can be a big difference on bike that weighs 400lbs. So on a bike that weighs 319 its an even bigger advatage.

its not the weight of the bike thats the issue. Its the combined weight of bike and rider that makes the difference. Pedrosa and bike weighs 420 lbs. Hayden and bike weigh like 460. Thats a big difference becaue Hayden weighs 40 lbs more than Dani. As it stands now you have 240HP powering 420lbs vs 240HP powering 460lbs.

If a minimum rider/bike collective was introduced, then they can lighten Haydens bike up and weigh Dani's down making the total weight of the machines and riders equal at say 440lbs. Then you have the same HP motor, powering the same amount of weight, regardless of who the rider is or how much he weighs. Its then about the skill of riding the bike because they are all 100% equal in equipment.It also allows for a rider to have a bike that fits their dimensions without having to worry about weight because everyone has to hit at least this number.

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