AMA Cheaters!!! What kinda BS is this?!!! - 600RR.net
 
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 06:21 PM
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AMA Cheaters!!! What kinda BS is this?!!!

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=30309

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AMA Racers Suspended, Fined, Docked Points For Tech Infractions At Laguna Seca

Sep 20, 2007

From a press release issued by AMA Pro Racing:

PENALTIES ASSESSED FOLLOWING AMA SUPERBIKE CHAMPIONSHIP FINALE

PICKERINGTON, Ohio (September 20, 2007) – AMA Racing has announced that riders Martin Cardenas, Jake Holden, Morgan Murphy, Shaun Summers and Aaron Yates have been penalized following the season-ending AMA Superbike Championship event from Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca on Sept. 16, 2007.

In pre-race technical inspection, the motorcycles of Murphy and Summers were found to be using engines that were not homologated for the class. In post-race technical inspection, the motorcycles of Cardenas, Holden and Yates were found to have illegal modifications to the crankcase breather tube(s).

Murphy and Summers were disqualified from the event and received six month suspensions. Cardenas, Holden and Yates have been fined $2,000 and will forfeit 20 points. Cardenas, Holden and Yates will retain their finishing positions from the event.

As noted on page 30, section 3.1 Homologation, a, of the 2007 AMA Superbike rulebook (www.amaproracing.com/rulebook), Only homologated motorcycles may be used in Supersport and Superstock competition.

Also, as noted on page 31, section 3.5 Engines, b, Except as noted, all internal and external engine parts must remain stock with no modifications….



(Editorial note: Murphy's GSX-R600 had been built using GSX-R750 engine internal parts to boost displacement, and Summers' GSX-R600 had been fitted with a complete GSX-R750 engine.)
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:08 PM
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Editorial note: Murphy's GSX-R600 had been built using GSX-R750 engine internal parts to boost displacement, and Summers' GSX-R600 had been fitted with a complete GSX-R750 engine

LOL!! Hahahaha! Those two guys are heroes!

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:21 PM
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haha. suzuki domination my ass..lol
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:28 PM
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Hahaha, what the heck are your wrench monkeys thinking!?!?!?! It's PRO racing, they're going to check your equipment! And using an engine with 150cc extra displacement! ******* crazy!
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:31 PM
 
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glad they got caught; although in the case of yates, cardenas, and holden ill blame that one on the team mechanics - they probably didn't tell the riders what they had done.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:38 PM
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glad they got caught; although in the case of yates, cardenas, and holden ill blame that one on the team mechanics - they probably didn't tell the riders what they had done.
Probably but an extra 150cc isn't something a racer's not going to notice. And they sure as heck would have noticed during qualifying.
post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KyleB View Post
glad they got caught; although in the case of yates, cardenas, and holden ill blame that one on the team mechanics - they probably didn't tell the riders what they had done.
Dude, you'd notice that difference esp if you were constantly in the power band. Plus, if they were good racers, they'd pull off immediately and say "WTF, mechanic dude?!" Good racers play by the rules and win by the rules.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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Don't be naive guys, AMA is one of the most corrupt series out there. Bens Spies Superstock bike dynos at over 190hp and everybody knows it an nobody does anything about it.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 09:07 PM
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Yates Holden and Cardenas weren't the ones with the GSXR 750 parts.

"In post-race technical inspection, the motorcycles of Cardenas, Holden and Yates were found to have illegal modifications to the crankcase breather tube(s)."

So it is VERY likely they had no idea because that isn't the kind of thing anyoen other than a tech would be able to distinguish.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIQPEN View Post
Don't be naive guys, AMA is one of the most corrupt series out there. Bens Spies Superstock bike dynos at over 190hp and everybody knows it an nobody does anything about it.
Do you really think AMA would knowingly allow cheating? Highly unlikely...ESPECIALLY if everyone knew about it.




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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 10:08 PM
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If you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough and its only cheating if you get caught

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 10:23 PM
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Yeah, and I am pretty sure Superstock bikes all dyno around 170 HP. If Spies had a 20 HP advantage, he would have lapped the field in every race.

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"I'll try it and let you guys know. I am not scared."

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 11:01 PM
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Summers' GSX-R600 had been fitted with a complete GSX-R750 engine
Hilarious!
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 11:14 PM
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Rofl


...
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 11:33 PM
 
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oh no, you dont need to check my engine everythings cool
what PFFT yaright it only LOOKS like a 750 engine silly!
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 01:29 AM
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its racing man everyone cheats... at least thats what i was always told by my dad!
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 01:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC View Post
Do you really think AMA would knowingly allow cheating? Highly unlikely...ESPECIALLY if everyone knew about it.
Dude, it has been a joke for about three months about spies "superstock" bike dynoing at over 190hp (Some rumors put it as high as 197, that is pretty "Super" for stock)amongst inside people that work and race in AMA, and it has spread, till even Greg White said that he was riding a 190hp superstock bike (spies's) this weekend on national television.

And go back to the traction control bullshit! Anybody that went to a race and it wasn't their first race, could hear the GSXR of Mladin, Spies, Yates stuttering on the exits of corners, indicating that traction control was cutting the ignition (or maybe fuel) to prevent wheel spin. That was going on for nearly a year before the AMA addressed it.

They only go after things when it becomes super obvious and the everyday Joe starts to become clued in on it, hence the crackdown this weekend. Conviently, Spies 190hp "Thuperduperstock" wasn't on the track.....
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Fooldog01 View Post
Yeah, and I am pretty sure Superstock bikes all dyno around 170 HP. If Spies had a 20 HP advantage, he would have lapped the field in every race.
But wait... he does lap people regularly in races.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 07:35 AM
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But wait... he does lap people regularly in races.
Oh yeah. i knwo that. I mean the whole field.

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"I'll try it and let you guys know. I am not scared."

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 07:41 AM
 
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Probably but an extra 150cc isn't something a racer's not going to notice. And they sure as heck would have noticed during qualifying.
re-read my post, i wasn't talking about those two.
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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 08:39 AM
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re-read my post, i wasn't talking about those two.
2-3 net gains - possibly even higher on a a supersport/superstock. Whether they knew or not, it doesn't matter at this point.
post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HIQPEN View Post
They only go after things when it becomes super obvious and the everyday Joe starts to become clued in on it, hence the crackdown this weekend. Conviently, Spies 190hp "Thuperduperstock" wasn't on the track.....
Spies' bike wasn't on track because Greg White couldn't qualify.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HIQPEN View Post
Dude, it has been a joke for about three months
And go back to the traction control bullshit! Anybody that went to a race and it wasn't their first race, could hear the GSXR of Mladin, Spies, Yates stuttering on the exits of corners, indicating that traction control was cutting the ignition (or maybe fuel) to prevent wheel spin. That was going on for nearly a year before the AMA addressed it.

Everybody knew Yosh had traction control, but it wasn't "illegal". It was a "gray area". What was illegal were front wheel speed sensors, and nobody could figure out how to have TC without front wheel speed sensors. Yosh did solve this problem by measuring things at the crank. Perfectly legal at the time and very, very clever. The concept is very similar to the way the kit ECU gives you a rudimentary traction control systems on the 07 Gixxer 1000 (for reference see Roadracingworld about 6 months back where Chris Ulrich writes an article about it) and it doesnt have front wheel speed sensors.


Some quotes from articles about traction control:
(motorcycle USA from 6/2/2006)
"A true traction control system uses the front wheel-speed sensor and rear wheel-speed sensor," according to Kevin Crowther, the AMA's Technical Manager for roadracing. "The system needs to compare the speed of the rear and the speed of the front. Once you take away the front wheel speed sensor you take out the key point of the system. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is using a true traction control system."
and


""It's a very gray area because of the wording," says Jordan Suzuki's team manager, Rich Alexander, adding that he was reluctant to comment on whether he believed anyone is using a TC system. "I don't think anybody has traction control out there - they might have other things if you want to word it differently."

Because of the wording of the AMA rulebook, Alexander says a system that controlled wheelspin without using a wheel-speed sensor would fall within the stated rules. "It's legal, because what's being done out there isn't traction control." But when we asked how such a system would be classified, the former racer laughed and said, "That's where we get into the tricky stuff." Alexander declined to comment when we asked if the Jordan Suzuki squad had ever tested a TC system.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 08:24 AM
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The modification to the hoses on the Jordan/M4 Emgo bikes had previously been approved:
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=30324

He didn't have an actual 750 motor, he was accused of having an illegal hybrid. But he's appealing too. He ran FX and not ss:
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=30333

If this blows up in the ama's face, it's going to be bad. If these two guys are right, no one will respect the ama. and why weren't the factories torn down? they're hammering a bunch of privateers. not that they should allow them to cheat, but they should check everyone.

+1 on Yoshi's traction control and "above the law" mentality. The ama impounded their front wheels at mid ohio last year, but no one thought they were going to actually do anything.

Last edited by skittzo; 09-22-2007 at 08:28 AM.
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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
Probably but an extra 150cc isn't something a racer's not going to notice. And they sure as heck would have noticed during qualifying.
Was this in AMA Superbike?

getting back in the game.
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 05:55 PM
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Do you really think AMA would knowingly allow cheating?
We do not.

Quote:
its racing man everyone cheats
Indeed they do. At least most of them. We do our best to find what we can. Most of us are volunteers in a sense, and I for one have never cheated in racing. Not knowing how to cheat makes it difficult to find the cheating sometimes.

Quote:
Everybody knew Yosh had traction control, but it wasn't "illegal". It was a "gray area". What was illegal were front wheel speed sensors, and nobody could figure out how to have TC without front wheel speed sensors. Yosh did solve this problem by measuring things at the crank. Perfectly legal at the time and very, very clever. The concept is very similar to the way the kit ECU gives you a rudimentary traction control systems on the 07 Gixxer 1000 (for reference see Roadracingworld about 6 months back where Chris Ulrich writes an article about it) and it doesnt have front wheel speed sensors.


Some quotes from articles about traction control:
(motorcycle USA from 6/2/2006)
"A true traction control system uses the front wheel-speed sensor and rear wheel-speed sensor," according to Kevin Crowther, the AMA's Technical Manager for roadracing. "The system needs to compare the speed of the rear and the speed of the front. Once you take away the front wheel speed sensor you take out the key point of the system. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is using a true traction control system."
and


""It's a very gray area because of the wording," says Jordan Suzuki's team manager, Rich Alexander, adding that he was reluctant to comment on whether he believed anyone is using a TC system. "I don't think anybody has traction control out there - they might have other things if you want to word it differently."

Because of the wording of the AMA rulebook, Alexander says a system that controlled wheelspin without using a wheel-speed sensor would fall within the stated rules. "It's legal, because what's being done out there isn't traction control." But when we asked how such a system would be classified, the former racer laughed and said, "That's where we get into the tricky stuff." Alexander declined to comment when we asked if the Jordan Suzuki squad had ever tested a TC system.
This is very true. When you read the rule book, there is a lot of gray where there should be black and white. This is something that we hope to address for next year. It is up to the board what if any changes will be made though.

Quote:
and why weren't the factories torn down?
Because they weren't on the podium. We typically check one item on the top three finishers from every race. In Atl., we took Pegrams FX bike as well as a point of reference.

We did find a couple bikes with the PAIR mod in Atl. As well as an illegal frame on the Boulder Ducati in Virginia. All of those teams were given warnings, so I must say I am surprised about the news. I was not at Laguna (kind of happy about that after reading this), I am sure it was a very unpleasant time to be in the tech tent with all of that going on.


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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 10:43 PM
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like the crew chiefs say "its our job to cheat and its tech's job to catch us".
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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-25-2007, 02:06 AM
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The two that were caught with 750 parts or engines are retarted. I know if I stuffed a 750 in my 600 and was only able to Q at the back of the pack in a 600 class. I would probly go home a slit my rist! And believe you me a 750 in a 600 frame is happening at the club level as well!


Sorry guys, but the AMA is a joke! When was the last time a factory bike was torn down? Better yet do you not notice the factory bikes going 5-10 mph faster than privaters down the straights.
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-25-2007, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
When was the last time a factory bike was torn down?
Again, I wasn't at Laguna, so I do not know if they pulled any motors apart there. We did however have the SuperSport and FX motors opened up at Road Atlanta. We checked pistons, rods, heads, and wrist pins. The only thing we found was the afore mentioned crankcase ventilation routing on a couple bikes.

I am not saying that the Yosh guys are 100% legit or not. What I will say is that those guys are the first ones to tech every weekend. There sh** is always in order. They have two of the top riders in the paddock, coupled with a very good bike that has a well sorted Traction Control system. I for one am not surprised that they finish on top.


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